12 Mar 15
Originally posted by sonhouseThe scam is the mind set you espouse.
That's just one more of the many aspects of the scam of religion. We made this so-called god in the image of man not the other way round.
We humans gave this so-called god human attributes so primitive humans could have something to hang onto.
With statements like 'I am a jealous god', that proves the man made nature of these religions.
How stupid ...[text shortened]... on, worship me or I will kill you?
Why don't religious people see through that obvious scam?
The ideas you expressed in the post above are definitely of human origins. The idea that there is "no God" comes from the mind of man. Your argument is against itself and renders your assertions moot.
The idea of an infinite and eternal creator God isn't of human origin as you might think it is. You should think it through.
Ceasing to exist is an insane idea. Whatever!
Originally posted by josephwBut surely your own personal conjecture about what "the Word of God" is [or isn't] has ~ as you suggest ~ no more authority than any other human being's conjecture, including mine, right? The fact that your conjecture differs from my conjecture is why we end up discussing things like 'what is the "soul"?' in a discussion forum like this.
On the other hand, you can only speculate about things spiritual based on your own religious adherence to humanistic conjecture because you have only your own word to go by, which has no more authority than any other human being.
So, if someone were to create a human life in a laboratory, do you believe your God figure would [or would be able to, or would wish to] place a "soul" in it? If so, then what is this "soul"? If not, and the being created did not have a "soul", what would become of it?
12 Mar 15
Originally posted by josephwYou totally ignored my argument. I never said there was 'no god'. I said the BIBLE god was totally made up by men giving human attributes to their made up deity so the population the uppers of the religion could have stories to tell that allowed the population to relate to the made up god.
The scam is the mind set you espouse.
The ideas you expressed in the post above are definitely of human origins. The idea that there is "no God" comes from the mind of man. Your argument is against itself and renders your assertions moot.
The idea of an infinite and eternal creator God isn't of human origin as you might think it is. You should think it through.
Ceasing to exist is an insane idea. Whatever!
That is as obvious as the nose sticking out way far on my face!
Why would you think otherwise that a god who can make an entire universe would somehow EVER be jealous of humans? Here we are mostly stuck on one small planet in an incredibly huge universe so much larger than Earth we will never be able to transverse it, maybe in a thousand years we advance to the point where we send colonists to planets around other stars nearby, say within 100 light years.
Even that huge volume is such a tiny portion of the real universe that we would STILL be pinpricks on such a construction.
And a deity who made it all, all the hundreds of billions of galaxies, in which we live in a rather ordinary version one 25 thousand light years from the center in a dusty forlorn place in an ordinary galaxy, such a deity would be so powerful we would upset the applecart of this deity and it would become JEALOUS of our vaunted power and expertise?
You make your god into a small human emotionally which is exactly what the framers intended so you can relate to this made up deity.
Originally posted by josephwBut don't you feel this way only because you are a Christian? Wouldn't you feel differently if you were a Hindu, for example? If so, doesn't it then have everything to do with how you feel. Indeed, doesn't it have pretty much everything to do with how you happen to feel about the validity of Christian doctrine?
The explanations I subscribe to have nothing to do with how I feel, and everything to do with the fact that those explanations come directly from the mouth of God.
13 Mar 15
Originally posted by FMF"But surely your own personal conjecture about what "the Word of God" is [or isn't] has ~ as you suggest ~ no more authority than any other human being's conjecture, including mine, right?"
But surely your own personal conjecture about what "the Word of God" is [or isn't] has ~ as you suggest ~ no more authority than any other human being's conjecture, including mine, right? The fact that your conjecture differs from my conjecture is why we end up discussing things like 'what is the "soul"?' in a discussion forum like this.
So, if someone were ...[text shortened]... at is this "soul"? If not, and the being created did not have a "soul", what would become of it?
That is exactly right! My personal conjecture, or yours, about what the Word of God is has no authority whatsoever. The Word of God itself is it's own final authority.
"The fact that your conjecture differs from my conjecture is why we end up discussing things like 'what is the "soul"?' in a discussion forum like this."
True, and as long as we continue to express our own thoughts and ideas about matters relating to our spiritual nature without final authority it will remain conjecture and opinion.
"So, if someone were to create a human life in a laboratory, do you believe your God figure would [or would be able to, or would wish to] place a "soul" in it? If so, then what is this "soul"? If not, and the being created did not have a "soul", what would become of it?"
If it were possible, and I'm only speculating here, to create a living human body in a laboratory, would God be able to breath the breath of life into it and make it a living soul? Of course! What can't God do except lie?
If God chose not to breath the breath of life into the body created in a laboratory I would imagine it, the body, would eventually die of old age, but it would die without a soul.
13 Mar 15
Originally posted by josephwWell, that last sentence we can agree on, it pretty much follows if this deity did not endow a body with a soul, it would in fact eventually die of old age without a soul.
[b]"But surely your own personal conjecture about what "the Word of God" is [or isn't] has ~ as you suggest ~ no more authority than any other human being's conjecture, including mine, right?"
That is exactly right! My personal conjecture, or yours, about what the Word of God is has no authority whatsoever. The Word of God itself is it's own final aut ...[text shortened]... I would imagine it, the body, would eventually die of old age, but it would die without a soul.[/b]
But the whole idea of human's having souls is racial wishful thinking. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence and where is that evidence you claim about humans having souls?
You can't just spout more bible verses since that is just another human book.
Give me something testable.
13 Mar 15
Originally posted by sonhouse"That is as obvious as the nose sticking out way far on my face!"
You totally ignored my argument. I never said there was 'no god'. I said the BIBLE god was totally made up by men giving human attributes to their made up deity so the population the uppers of the religion could have stories to tell that allowed the population to relate to the made up god.
That is as obvious as the nose sticking out way far on my face!
...[text shortened]... emotionally which is exactly what the framers intended so you can relate to this made up deity.
It didn't know your nose stuck out way too far on your face! 😉
"Why would you think otherwise that a god who can make an entire universe would somehow EVER be jealous of humans?"
So glad you asked!
Exo 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Deu 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu 5:9
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deu 6:15
(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
Qanna. Means jealous. It it used of God as not bearing any rival; the sever avenger of departure from Himself. God isn't jealous of humans as you seem to misunderstand. God is jealous for your worship and will not tolerate any idol in your life.
How would you feel if your son ran next door and loved your neighbor as his father and ignored you?
13 Mar 15
Originally posted by sonhouse"Give me something testable."
Well, that last sentence we can agree on, it pretty much follows if this deity did not endow a body with a soul, it would in fact eventually die of old age without a soul.
But the whole idea of human's having souls is racial wishful thinking. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence and where is that evidence you claim about humans having so ...[text shortened]... t spout more bible verses since that is just another human book.
Give me something testable.
They say there are two methods by which we can "know" something. Either empirically or rationally.
Neither method will gain you the knowledge of the truth.
13 Mar 15
Originally posted by josephwAgreed, as long as you accept that your notion that some sort of "final authority" is substantiating your opinions ~ and invalidating opinions that differ from yours ~ is every bit as much a case of subjective conjecture as mine or anyone else's.
True, and as long as we continue to express our own thoughts and ideas about matters relating to our spiritual nature without final authority it will remain conjecture and opinion.
13 Mar 15
Originally posted by josephwIf it were possible, and I'm only speculating here, to create a living human body in a laboratory, would God be able to breath the breath of life into it and make it a living soul? Of course! What can't God do except lie?
If God chose not to breath the breath of life into the body created in a laboratory I would imagine it, the body, would eventually die of old age, but it would die without a soul.
So you are differentiating here between "the breath of life" and "life"?
13 Mar 15
Originally posted by josephwSure, a convincing argument. Words from humans. Humans say a lot of things, make up a lot of stories, just like the bible. There was no god involved in that.
[b]"That is as obvious as the nose sticking out way far on my face!"
It didn't know your nose stuck out way too far on your face! 😉
"Why would you think otherwise that a god who can make an entire universe would somehow EVER be jealous of humans?"
So glad you asked!
Exo 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: fo ...[text shortened]... would you feel if your son ran next door and loved your neighbor as his father and ignored you?[/b]
I am a jealous god. Cleverly designed by the framers of the religion to scare the unruly primitive mobs they wished to control and so made up this religion designed for a specific set of people.
Add some anthropormorphisms so the mobs could identify with this made up deity, and Viola, instant religion.
Originally posted by FMFHow I "feel" follows after I "know". We don't feel truth, we know it, we learn it, we discover it.
But don't you feel this way only because you are a Christian? Wouldn't you feel differently if you were a Hindu, for example? If so, doesn't it then have [b]everything to do with how you feel. Indeed, doesn't it have pretty much everything to do with how you happen to feel about the validity of Christian doctrine?[/b]
I am a Christian because of who and what I know, and not because I feel like one. I don't feel like a bird or a cow because I know I'm a man. How I feel about what I know is another thing altogether.
13 Mar 15
Originally posted by sonhouseYou're human aren't you? If there were no God then you'd be right about the Bible.
Sure, a convincing argument. Words from humans. Humans say a lot of things, make up a lot of stories, just like the bible. There was no god involved in that.
I am a jealous god. Cleverly designed by the framers of the religion to scare the unruly primitive mobs they wished to control and so made up this religion designed for a specific set of people.
...[text shortened]... hropormorphisms so the mobs could identify with this made up deity, and Viola, instant religion.
But what if you're wrong? Believe it or not, but you are caught up in a circular logic. If you say the that the words of God are the words of men, then it is the words of men that say so. You are merely using mans words to say that the words of God are the words of men.
There is no rational way for you to know that that is true. All you can honestly say is that you don't know for a fact that God hasn't spoken.
Maybe you can explain how you know God hasn't spoken. I'd like to hear that. Of course, then you're going to say how do I know God has spoken, and say that the onus is on me to prove He has just because I make that assertion.
Man thinks there are only two ways to "know" anything. Empirically or rationally. That may be true to a certain extent as it relates to the physical universe, but not when it involves the spirit. Rationalism and empiricism will not reveal truths that relate to spirituality.
13 Mar 15
Originally posted by FMFNo.
[b]If it were possible, and I'm only speculating here, to create a living human body in a laboratory, would God be able to breath the breath of life into it and make it a living soul? Of course! What can't God do except lie?
If God chose not to breath the breath of life into the body created in a laboratory I would imagine it, the body, would eventually die o ...[text shortened]... without a soul.
So you are differentiating here between "the breath of life" and "life"?[/b]
The terms are defined by God who is the author of life. Again, I make the appeal to the final authority. Are you having difficulty comprehending this concept? I don't mean that in a negative sense. You know I know you don't recognize the final authority of God's Word, but I do.
In reality, that's really what the debate is about don't you think?
13 Mar 15
Originally posted by FMF1b]"...is every bit as much a case of subjective conjecture as mine or anyone else's."[/b]
Agreed, as long as you accept that your notion that some sort of "final authority" is substantiating your opinions ~ and invalidating opinions that differ from yours ~ is every bit as much a case of subjective conjecture as mine or anyone else's.
It is my belief that in matters concerning "truth" there are no gray areas. Opinions are different. I prefer blue, you green. But a "final authority" concerning matters of life and living, where truth is expressed in unequivocal terms, subjective conjecture is not an option.
Objective absolute truth. Pure logic dictates, as expressed in God's Word, that God is unchanging and eternal, as is all His truth. No doubts.
The alternative is confusion.