PK, there is always going to be an enmity between atheists and Christians. From your post, I can see that you seem confused as to why this should be.
The basis of it is this.
To Christians and to God, rejecting God is a sin. Not only is it a sin, it is probably the only sin that cannot be atoned for by the redemptive salvation of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. That is why it is an especially heinous sin. And why causing other people to reject God is equally heinous. Even capital murder can be atoned for with honest repentance and acceptance of Christ as Savior. But not so the rejection of God.
This is basically why Christians fight with atheists. To possibly convince one or more of their error in judgement and bring them back to God and save their immortal soul. And they fight with the hard-core atheists to possibly prevent them from compounding their sin by causing others who might accept Christ from rejecting salvation.
The problem with me being truthful and presenting it this way to you is that you simply do not believe me. This leads you down the road to assuming I'm just all full of myself. This is what atheists often don't get. That a Christian's faith is REAL to them. My faith is another fact of life to me, just as the sun rising in the east is a fact. Just as everything I've told you is a fact. That you disbelieve it doesn't change that for me. It just means you're temporarily blind to the truth.
It's just like the Black Knight standing there hopping on one leg after the other was chopped off saying, "It's just a flesh wound!" It doesn't change the fact he's standing there bleeding to death.
My job is to get you to open your eyes and believe it. It's a huge challenge, but I keep trying because I've seen the miracle of one who begins to believe and is dragged back from the precipice. A lot of Christians have so much passion for the challenge that they go overboard, effectively handing the drowning man a brick instead of a life preserver. And like saving a drowning man, you have to keep your distance, lest he drag you both down. We only hope God will forgive us for trying and failing.
(I've already typed a lot more but deleted it all because I know you're not buying anything I'm saying. Forgive me for trying.)
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
Originally posted by SuzianneNo we get that your faith is 'real' to you.
PK, there is always going to be an enmity between atheists and Christians. From your post, I can see that you seem confused as to why this should be.
The basis of it is this.
To Christians and to God, rejecting God is a sin. Not only is it a sin, it is probably the only sin that cannot be atoned for by the redemptive salvation of Christ's sacrifice because I know you're not buying anything I'm saying. Forgive me for trying.)
That is what we think is so nuts.
You believe with absolute conviction stuff for which there is absolutely no evidence, and you
make important decisions about how you live your life and interact with others based on this
conviction you have for which there is no basis.
This is bad enough but a lot of what the bible teaches is abhorrent, it's value as a moral
instructor is negative, It makes things worse not better.
There is no god, there is no afterlife, there is no judgement by some external being, there is just
this life, and us.
EDIT: Also the debate about whether the shroud is genuine (almost certainly isn't but hey) is pointless.
Because it doesn't prove anything miraculous.
Proving JC was real doesn't prove that he performed any miracles, was the son of god, or came back
from the dead.
Originally posted by googlefudgeWhy not?
No we get that your faith is 'real' to you.
That is what we think is so nuts.
You believe with absolute conviction stuff for which there is absolutely no evidence, and you
make important decisions about how you live your life and interact with others based on this
conviction you have for which there is no basis.
This is bad enough but a lot of ...[text shortened]... 't prove that he performed any miracles, was the son of god, or came back
from the dead.
Originally posted by AgergYes, I think maybe I do. I know that if Jesus appeared to you and told
You wouldn't understand
you things about yourself that you believe nobody knows and performed
some kind of miracle for you, maybe even healing you from some disease,
you would still think it was a hoax. Yes, I think I do understand now that
I am wasting my time trying to educate and reason with those
like you who have reprobate minds.
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
Originally posted by RJHindsNo, I did explain this to you (several times).
Yes, I think maybe I do. I know that if Jesus appeared to you and told
you things about yourself that you believe nobody knows and performed
some kind of miracle for you, maybe even healing you from some disease,
you would still think it was a hoax. Yes, I think I do understand now that
I am wasting my time trying to educate and reason with those
like you who have reprobate minds.
The Turin shroud, if genuine, shows that there was a guy who was crucified, possibly in the
manner described in the bible.
This doesn't demonstrate that this man was the son of god, or that he could perform miracles,
or rose from the dead.
What I don't understand is how you think that having a cloth that was purportedly once wrapped
around a man's body after he was crucified demonstrates that (for example) he could walk on
water or turn water into wine.
It doesn't demonstrate anything other than the fact that a man was crucified.
What you want (and want it to be) is proof of JC's divinity.
Originally posted by RJHindsyes, it does mean a piece of linen if you're talking about small pieces of linen cloth. when used in reference to the dead, it means strips of linen cloth. you have to use the correct context. i even gave you strong's reference number!
Shroud usually refers to an item, such as a cloth, that covers or protects
some other object. The term is most often used in reference to burial sheets,
winding-cloths or winding-sheets, such as the famous Shroud of Turin or
Tachrichim (burial shrouds) that Jews are dressed in for burial. Traditionally,
burial shrouds are made of white cotton, wool or li ...[text shortened]... tural fibre.
P.S. I pointed out before, "othonion" is singular and means a piece of linen.
Strong's G3608 - othonion o-tho'-nē-on
1) a piece of linen, small linen cloth
2) strips of linen cloth for swathing the dead
the bible translations, in this case are correct. you are incorrect. your precious shroud is a fraud and even the bible tells you so.
Originally posted by googlefudgeDon't you know about the negative photographic image of Christ on
No, I did explain this to you (several times).
The Turin shroud, if genuine, shows that there was a guy who was crucified, possibly in the
manner described in the bible.
This doesn't demonstrate that this man was the son of god, or that he could perform miracles,
or rose from the dead.
What I don't understand is how you think that having a c ...[text shortened]... t that a man was crucified.
What you want (and want it to be) is proof of JC's divinity.
the Shroud? Photography was not even invented until well over a
thousand years later. Isn't that a miracle?
Originally posted by Suziannebible gateway is my favorite. You can set your favorite translation and it remembers. Mine is English Standard.
Thanks for the link, I will check it out as soon as I can.
Edit: This site is quite extraordinary. I've been rather disenchanted really with the lame search features of the KJBO website. BLB is a revelation. Thanks again.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritYou aparently did not read this about "shrouds" from Wikipedia:
yes, it does mean a piece of linen if you're talking about small pieces of linen cloth. when used in reference to the dead, it means strips of linen cloth. you have to use the correct context. i even gave you strong's reference number!
Strong's G3608 - othonion o-tho'-nē-on
1) a piece of linen, small linen cloth
2) strips of linen cloth for ...[text shortened]... rrect. you are incorrect. your precious shroud is a fraud and even the bible tells you so.
Shroud usually refers to an item, such as a cloth, that covers or protects
some other object. The term is most often used in reference to burial sheets,
winding-cloths or winding-sheets, such as the famous Shroud of Turin or
Tachrichim (burial shrouds) that Jews are dressed in for burial. Traditionally,
burial shrouds are made of white cotton, wool or linen, though any material
can be used so long as it is made of natural fibre.
The Jews did not use strips of linen cloth like the Eqyptian mummies. They
used linen sheets called "shrouds".
Originally posted by RJHindsRJH,
You aparently did not read this about "shrouds" from Wikipedia:
Shroud usually refers to an item, such as a cloth, that covers or protects
some other object. The term is most often used in reference to burial sheets,
winding-cloths or winding-sheets, such as the famous Shroud of Turin or
Tachrichim (burial shrouds) that Jews are dressed in for burial. ...[text shortened]... strips of linen cloth like the Eqyptian mummies. They
used linen sheets called "shrouds".
Obviously you need more edumacatin'.
Like I alluded to before. EVERYONE has always used linen strips to cover the dead. I mean, are you going to testify before all of us right now, that you've never once seen Scooby Doo, or any of those other documentaries where the corpse is whirled around like a spinning top, by simply yanking real hard on the end of the linen strip?
Get with it man! You're embarassing us with your ignorance!
Originally posted by sumydidAre you suggesting Jesus was a mummy, brother?
RJH,
Obviously you need more edumacatin'.
Like I alluded to before. EVERYONE has always used linen strips to cover the dead. I mean, are you going to testify before all of us right now, that you've never once seen Scooby Doo, or any of those other documentaries where the corpse is whirled around like a spinning top, by simply yanking real hard on the end of the linen strip?
Get with it man! You're embarassing us with your ignorance!
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
Originally posted by RJHindsno,
Don't you know about the negative photographic image of Christ on
the Shroud? Photography was not even invented until well over a
thousand years later. Isn't that a miracle?
assuming it isn't a fake, which is a big assumption,
There are a myriad of ways the image could have been formed without divine intervention,
thus it is not evidence for a miracle.