02 Nov 11
2 edits
Originally posted by bbarrAnd likewise, I'm sure you would like God's system of justice reformed to reflect your insights.
We should totally reform the legal system to reflect your insights regarding the meaninglessness of Earthly suffering. "Your Honor, my client only raped and stabbed the victim's physical body. But, as you know, her soul remained untouched..."
Neither reform is going to happen, and these ficticious hypotheticals of yours have no relevance.
The facts from your perspective and the facts from the Christian perspective are completely opposed. Lashing out with thinly veiled insults and innuendo won't bring our paradigms any closer together. But I'm sure you already knew that. And because you are obviously smart enough to know it, one is left to assume that your purpose in these outbursts is quite petty; to hurt those with whom you disagree, and, perhaps also score some laughs with your like-minded friends.
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by bbarrGod refuses to be put into your little box. That is what you are pissed off
Is this supposed to explain something? What are you trying to say? Look, whodey, you know the deal. Don't avoid the issue. How am I supposed to take the God hypothesis seriously when there are cases like the woman being raped and stabbed? Do you have an explanation for why God would allow this? Why he would fail to intervene? Because all you're giving m ...[text shortened]... gically healing him, or... But God didn't do any of these things. He's a dick. Admit it.
about isn't it?
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by sumydidNo, I'd be happy if God's system of "justice" was just a system of justice.
And likewise, I'm sure you would like God's system of justice reformed to reflect your insights.
Neither reform is going to happen, and these ficticious hypotheticals of yours have no relevance.
The facts from your perspective and the facts from the Christian perspective are completely opposed. Lashing out with thinly veiled insults and innuendo won't ...[text shortened]... with whom you disagree, and, perhaps also score some laughs with your like-minded friends.
02 Nov 11
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsNo, I just like seeing you guys get all tied up in knots, tripping over your attempts to avoid saying obviously silly things, changing the meaning of terms, etc. You all know, deep down, that the God you believe in wouldn't allow a woman to be raped and stabbed. I mean, you wouldn't worship a monster. But you are confronted with facts to the contrary every single day. I'm surprised the cognitive dissonance doesn't make your heads collectively explode (not that it would matter, since that would leave your souls untouched... ).
God refuses to be put into your little box. That is what you are pissed off
about isn't it?
- Joined
- 02 Feb 06
- Moves
- 123634
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by sumydidI have to say I think this is an excellent post. It is a really good explanation of your persective as a Christian without being defensive or having to resort to threats of eternal damnation, satan, etc. Anyone that doesn't like your answer is simply not going to like any answer other than "You're right, god doesn't exist." which they know isn't going to happen in the first place. Well done.
What we have here with the cynics trying to say God is evil because He allows [fill in the blank with the most awful, heinous, torturous suffering imaginable], is a complete disconnect on the Christian perspective.
To these cynics, if I may, this physical life is for all intents and purposes, all we have -- therefore, if we are allowed to suffer [fill in ...[text shortened]... the soul and about 80% of what I said, so it is really just a pat answer. Talking points.
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by bbarrWhy do you not take responsibility for your part in allowing a woman to
No, I just like seeing you guys get all tied up in knots, tripping over your attempts to avoid saying obviously silly things, changing the meaning of terms, etc. You all know, deep down, that the God you believe in wouldn't allow a woman to be raped and stabbed. I mean, you wouldn't worship a monster. But you are confronted with facts to the contrary every ...[text shortened]... explode (not that it would matter, since that would leave your souls untouched... ).
be raped?
02 Nov 11
bbarr I know you're getting a good laugh out of this "left the soul untouched" business. But the bible touches on the subject. Not many people approach the common snare of "what about the tortured, raped women God didn't save," the way I do, but, my argument is supported by Scripture.
Anything that happens to the physical body here in this fleeting existence we have on Earth, has absolutely no bearing on, and can do no damage to, the soul. Because of this, from the Christian perspective and looking at the grand scheme of things... what happens to our bodies here on Earth is of so little significance it rises no higher than the level of irrelevant.
You also (though I am certain it would pain you to do so) should understand that again from the Christian perspective and the perspective of other belief systems, death is not a bad thing and represents a beginning. The only "end" that is experienced in the Christian's death, is the end of all suffering.
Sure, you and your colleagues can have a real blast with that concept and I've seen it countless times before. I've had more than one skeptic tell me they would gladly hand me a gun and I should just blow my own head off if I'm so confident in death being a good thing. It's cute (though disturbing) argument but suicide is frowned upon. Paul as you well know I'm sure, seriously contemplated offing himself while in prison--knowing it would be a good thing in the end--but he realized that as long as he was still breathing, God obviously had a purpose for him to serve. Ultimately it's God decision when we die.
02 Nov 11
1 edit
Originally posted by sumydidRight, so the actual suffering of others is irrelevant to you, because it leaves their souls untouched. As though that weren't horrible enough, and sufficient as evidence that our moral predicates (e.g. 'loving', 'just', etc.) really are used radically differently. But what I find fascinating is that you overlook the lasting psychological damage this violence can cause (including loss of faith, coldness and callousness towards others, hatred, aggression, etc., not to mention the potential damage to our mental life that could be caused by direct harm to our brains). And here you'll face a dilemma: Either these forms of psychological damage are also forms of damage to the soul, or they are not. If they are, then all my arguments apply and you are wrong to say the soul remains untouched by violence. If they are not, then you'll have to admit that many, if not all, our psychological traits are not part of the soul. The soul will be, on this second view, empty of everything we care about with regard to ourselves; it will be just an empty, propertyless formalism. So you should probably think more about this view of yours, whichever it may be.
bbarr I know you're getting a good laugh out of this "left the soul untouched" business. But the bible touches on the subject. Not many people approach the common snare of "what about the tortured, raped women God didn't save," the way I do, but, my argument is supported by Scripture.
Anything that happens to the physical body here in this fleeting exis iously had a purpose for him to serve. Ultimately it's God decision when we die.
02 Nov 11
1 edit
Originally posted by bbarrI face no such dilemma. Damage to the brain is not damage to the soul. Psychological effects are contained within the boundaries of our physical existence.
And here you'll face a dilemma: Either these forms of psychological damage are also forms of damage to the soul, or they are not. If they are, then all my arguments apply and you are wrong to say the soul remains untouched by violence. If they are not, then you'll have to admit that many, if not all, our psychological traits are not part of the soul. The so ...[text shortened]... s formalism. So you should probably think more about this view of yours, whichever it may be.
I'm not willing to go as far as to say the soul cannot be effected in any way whatsoever. Just as a really bad dream can have a real, though temporary effect on me, a traumatic experience here in this physical existence I believe can have a real, though diminished and temporary, effect on the soul.
I'm not claiming to have all the answers. In fact, this discussion is so rarely partaken in on both sides, I've had very little chance to work it all out in discussion with someone else.
Perhaps you are helping me in this and that's a good thing.
But I do believe you are being entirely too convenient and dismissive in your own right.
02 Nov 11
1 edit
Originally posted by sumydidIf your approach was realistic and unemotional why would you then care about what bbar's senses about you in your approach? Doesn't that involve emotion you have about his obvious realistic sense?
I'm off to bed but as a last note. I am picking up on the obvious sense you have that my approach is very cold and callous.
Instead of being cold, I think of myself as being more of a realist. My approach is realistic and there's just no need to inject any emotion into it.
-m. 😉
02 Nov 11
Originally posted by sumydidThen let's start this conversation out with the obvious questions:
I face no such dilemma. Damage to the brain is not damage to the soul. Psychological effects are contained within the boundaries of our physical existence.
I'm not willing to go as far as to say the soul cannot be effected in any way whatsoever. Just as a really bad dream can have a real, though temporary effect on me, a traumatic experience here in th ...[text shortened]...
But I do believe you are being entirely too convenient and dismissive in your own right.
Are there any psychological traits that are contained in the soul? If so, what are they? If not, then what distinguishes my soul from yours? Or, to put the question a little more sharply; if God played "musical souls" and your soul switched with mine, what, if any, difference would we recognize?
Now, once you answer those questions, ask yourself whether extreme physical violence can profoundly, negatively effect whatever psychological traits you take to constitute (at least in part) the soul.