13 Jun 15
I started this thead because it seems robbie missed this post in the thread in which it was originally made.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
"I thought the answer to that would be fairly obvious to anyone with the ability to discern? They are trying to find a pretext upon which to condemn Jesus, like breaking the Sabbath (a false charge) or making himself equal to God (another false charge"
"They", the Jews, according to the scriptures, charged Jesus with saying something that made Himself equal with God. That you and I can agree with, but that's the irony of it. Jesus said what "they" understood to mean that He was in fact doing just that.
The "charge" wasn't false contrary to what you think. Why would Jesus say a thing that can be interpreted to mean that He was in fact doing just that, making Himself equal with God? A point you have just acknowledged. Because that was exactly what Jesus was saying!
You need to see that!
13 Jun 15
Originally posted by josephwImmediately after that Christ responded with this:
I started this thead because it seems robbie missed this post in the thread in which it was originally made.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
[b]"I thought the answer to that would be fairly obvious to anyone with the ability to discern? They are trying to find a pretext upon which to condemn Jesus, like breaking the Sabbath (a false charge) or maki ...[text shortened]... ave just acknowledged. Because that was exactly what Jesus was saying!
You need to see that!
John 5:19 .. The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Does that sound like equality? Its an authority figure - God and a subservient figure - Christ.
God is in charge and Christ follows. Certainly NOT EQUAL.
By the way, the same people who you seem to get your doctrines from - The Pharisees?..
Read what Christ said of them in Matt 23 - blind guides, fools, hypocrites .
You are not listening to or following Christ. You are following men, Pharisees, the pastor, the church leaders, etc. Good luck with that.
13 Jun 15
Originally posted by Rajk999He is still in league with those who sought to kill Jesus, he prefers theirs words than the words of Christ himself. I wonder why he hates Jesus so much?
Immediately after that Christ responded with this:
[b]John 5:19 .. The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Does that sound like equality? Its an authority figure - God and a subservient figure - Christ.
God is in charge and Christ follows. Certainly N ...[text shortened]... st. You are following men, Pharisees, the pastor, the church leaders, etc. Good luck with that.[/b]
13 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobiePeople tend to be indoctrinated by those they choose to associate with, i suppose.
He is still in league with those who sought to kill Jesus, he prefers theirs words than the words of Christ himself. I wonder why he hates Jesus so much?
One way out of that hole is to adopt the approach which I use:
.. if Christ did not say it clearly then Im not interested in that doctrine
Originally posted by Rajk999The point you miss is that by stating that God was His Father that made Him the Son of God and therefore equal to God. It is no difference than saying the Holy Spirit is equal to God. The Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit are all equal to God.
Immediately after that Christ responded with this:
[b]John 5:19 .. The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Does that sound like equality? Its an authority figure - God and a subservient figure - Christ.
God is in charge and Christ follows. Certainly N ...[text shortened]... st. You are following men, Pharisees, the pastor, the church leaders, etc. Good luck with that.[/b]
The apostle Peter said that lying to the Holy Spirit was not lying to men, but to God. And after His resurrection Jesus indicated that He had all authority in Heaven and on Earth, and to baptize in the Name of Jesus was equal to baptizing in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Therefore, when the disciples baptized in the Name of Jesus they were baptizing in the Name of God, not men.
That seems very clear to me. Even doubting Thomas, finally said to Jesus, MY LORD AND MY GOD."
HalleluYaH !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
14 Jun 15
Originally posted by Rajk999So you're a convert to the JW religion?
Immediately after that Christ responded with this:
[b]John 5:19 .. The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Does that sound like equality? Its an authority figure - God and a subservient figure - Christ.
God is in charge and Christ follows. Certainly N ...[text shortened]... st. You are following men, Pharisees, the pastor, the church leaders, etc. Good luck with that.[/b]
14 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWith that statement you lose all credibility. You don't even have the courage to reply to the OP.
He is still in league with those who sought to kill Jesus, he prefers theirs words than the words of Christ himself. I wonder why he hates Jesus so much?
You admitted that the Jews accused Jesus of making Himself equal to God, even though you want to call it a false charge, but nevertheless that was what Jesus said, and He knew He said what the Jews would know and understand to mean that He, Jesus, was making Himself equal to God.
But now you are squirming away from the truth by colluding with your newfound cohort Rajk to avoid your obvious misconception of the verses in question by accusing me of hating Jesus.
Time to wake up robbie.
Originally posted by Rajk999John 10:30-33
People tend to be indoctrinated by those they choose to associate with, i suppose.
One way out of that hole is to adopt the approach which I use:
[b] .. if Christ did not say it clearly then Im not interested in that doctrine[/b]
I and my Father are one.
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Here again the Jews accuse Jesus of blasphemy because Jesus said, "I and my Father are one", to which the Jews replied, "...thou, being a man, makest thyself God".
That charge was not a false charge because that was exactly what Jesus meant when He said "I and my Father are one", and Jesus knew and understood the Jews would know it too. Notice too that Jesus did not deny their accusation.
You say you are only interested in what Jesus says? Try listening to Him then.
Originally posted by josephwThat is simply another lie, Jesus did not say that he was equal to God, his enemies claimed it, not Jesus, those very same enemies whose charge against Christ you would now have us believe.
With that statement you lose all credibility. You don't even have the courage to reply to the OP.
You admitted that the Jews accused Jesus of making Himself equal to God, even though you want to call it a false charge, but nevertheless that was what Jesus said, and He knew He said what the Jews would know and understand to mean that He, Jesus, was making ...[text shortened]... sconception of the verses in question by accusing me of hating Jesus.
Time to wake up robbie.
I see you are still parroting these old trinitarian falsehoods, I would be pleased if you will explain the following,
at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: 'That they may all be one,' and he added, 'that they may be one even as we are one.' He used the same Greek word (hen) for 'one' in all these instances, including John 10:30 which you quote as proof of Jesus claiming that he and God are equal, so obviously, Jesus’ disciples are also equal to God and become part of the trinity according to your logic they also being ,'one'.
Is that really what you would have us believe?
I have no problem listening to Jesus, its his enemies that I have a problem with.
14 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieCorrect. And the idea of oneness is applied to loads of people:
That is simply another lie, Jesus did not say that he was equal to God, his enemies claimed it, not Jesus, those very same enemies whose charge against Christ you would now have us believe.
I see you are still parroting these old trinitarian falsehoods, I would be pleased if you will explain the following,
at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed reg ...[text shortened]... us believe?
I have no problem listening to Jesus, its his enemies that I have a problem with.
God, Christ, disciples, apostles, husband and wife etc.
They cannot all be equal or the same.
Its a ridiculous notion
14 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDifferent context. That's your problem robbie. You're comparing the meaning of one passage with another without context.
That is simply another lie, Jesus did not say that he was equal to God, his enemies claimed it, not Jesus, those very same enemies whose charge against Christ you would now have us believe.
I see you are still parroting these old trinitarian falsehoods, I would be pleased if you will explain the following,
at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed reg ...[text shortened]... us believe?
I have no problem listening to Jesus, its his enemies that I have a problem with.
You still haven't addressed the point that what Jesus said about Himself the Jews clearly understood to mean, i.e., that he made Himself equal with God, a charge that Jesus did not deny, but in fact had meant by what He said, of which the Jews were clear on.
You're missing it!
14 Jun 15
Originally posted by Rajk999The separate contexts are what is confounding you. To be one in spirit or of mind and purpose is one thing, but to be one in substance and nature is another.
Correct. And the idea of oneness is applied to loads of people:
God, Christ, disciples, apostles, husband and wife etc.
They cannot all be equal or the same.
Its a ridiculous notion
The Jews understood Jesus to mean that He was equal to God by what He said because what Jesus said was that He and the Father were one. An accusation Jesus did not deny.
You're are in denial of that point.
Originally posted by josephwIts not a different context nor is it a different word and I dont have the problem, you do. Jesus uses the exact same word in exactly the same manner, you will now tell us why its use is any different and you will now tell us if the disciples are also equal to God and part of the trinity, they being one with Jesus and God. If you will not or cannot then we are free to dismiss your claims as more unsubstantiated assertions with no basis other than because you say they are true and given your track record I don't think that's going to hold.
Different context. That's your problem robbie. You're comparing the meaning of one passage with another without context.
You still haven't addressed the point that what Jesus said about Himself the Jews clearly understood to mean, i.e., that he made Himself equal with God, a charge that Jesus did not deny, but in fact had meant by what He said, of which the Jews were clear on.
You're missing it!
I don't think the Jews clearly understood anything, in fact its clear that they never, they were wrong about him breaking the sabbath and they were wrong about him making himself equal to God, all they were doing was looking for a pretext to kill him. I have repeated this four or five times and your attempts to dishonestly state that I have not addressed the question are rather plastic, transparent, tedious and pathetic.