Originally posted by BigDoggProblem (OP)“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God,
"absolute truth"
"incisive CS Lewis quote"
"perfect justice"
Those are some that convince me a discussion will be fruitless.
Anyone have any others?
'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says,
'All right, then, have it your way'" -C.S. Lewis.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemThe discussion is intended to be fruitless. Culture Wars are a diversionary strategy - the politics of anti politics. By framing social issues in these terms they are rendered insoluble. Does America have the worst child poverty statistics in the developed world? Does America have the largest military budget in the world? Is there any connection? Of course not. It is all about the individual. America needs a small state with a massive army, it needs a weak constitution whose president is "leader of the world" and "Commander in Chief" of the biggest army in the world. It needs a mighty constitution that does not constrain imperial aggression nor corporate interests but protects "freeeeeeedom" and is virtually sacred. It all makes sense. Speak to Jesus.
"absolute truth"
"incisive CS Lewis quote"
"perfect justice"
Those are some that convince me a discussion will be fruitless.
Anyone have any others?
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Originally posted by finnegan
The discussion is intended to be fruitless.
Many posters on both sides of an issue simply want to get some concepts exposed and examined.
Throwing up hands in despair saying "Its a trap" seems too paranoid for some reason.
Then again one might be trapped at a dead end with one part of his being. He needs to exercise another part of his being. We're not just a cerebrum. I think we do as humans have a kind of spiritual component we can exercise to use.
Trapped - may mean come to a dead in in one area of humanity. A way OUT may exist with another area of our total humanity. Like with prayer and the use of our spiritual part.
Culture Wars are a diversionary strategy - the politics of anti politics.
The politics of anti politics ? I have to think about that one. The politics ... of ... anti politics ...
And I thought the trinity was hard to explain.
By framing social issues in these terms they are rendered insoluble. Does America have the worst child poverty statistics in the developed world? Does America have the largest military budget in the world? Is there any connection? Of course not. It is all about the individual. America needs a small state with a massive army, it needs a weak constitution whose president is "leader of the world" and "Commander in Chief" of the biggest army in the world. It needs a mighty constitution that does not constrain imperial aggression nor corporate interests but protects "freeeeeeedom" and is virtually sacred. It all makes sense. Speak to Jesus.
Maybe we should have two forums:
1.) American Spirituality
2.) Spirituality
Originally posted by sonshipCountless times when I have told you that what you just told me to believe didn't make sense or seemed immoral to me, you have thrown your hands up and talked in a paranoid way about how I was trying to de-convert you or asking you to follow me instead of Jesus.
Throwing up hands in despair saying [b]"Its a trap" seems too paranoid for some reason.[/b]
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Originally posted by FMF
Countless times when I have told you that what you just told me to believe didn't make sense or seemed immoral to me,
Did I ?
I think I cannot tell you to believe.
I think you have argued something like -
"But I can't believe what I don't believe."
And I have decided that you are right.
Now the immoral part, I assume you mean about eternal perdition.
Now I have not shirked from saying that this is tought, hard, I don't like it myself at least sometimes, etc. I have never disagreed with anyone one objecting to eternal punishment that it is very very hard to imagine or feel good about. Horrendous is not a bad enough word to talk about punishment forever. Hardly any human language word is.
Haven't I said things like that ?
I have also said on more than two occasions, that NOW I my view of this will not be my view of it when I am transformed the image of Christ so completely that I see everything as through the eyes of God. Haven't I told you that ?
I expect that when God is finished so conforming the saved to the image of Christ they will see all things only as seen through the eyes of God. I do not NOW see all things as through the eyes of God. I take into account leniency toward sin because I do not see the total awfulness of sin. So when someone says they cannot imagine God's hatred for it to that degree, I can feel for them.
Either:
1.) The Ultimate Governor of all reality has something to learn from us about justice.
2.) We just do not realize the awfulness of rebellion against the Ultimate Governor
Of course one could conceivably argue - 'Well, God never said such things as eternal punishment. Bad people made it up."
This is not a viable option to me. I think the first two alternatives is what I have to deal with.
you have thrown your hands up and talked in a paranoid way about how I was trying to de-convert you or asking you to follow me instead of Jesus.
Maybe so. I am not above weak responses.
In this very difficult matter of God's retribution forever towards those who will not be forgiven, will not be reconciled to God, will not be justified through His gracious offer, and will not be saved is this -
"Look. The SAME Person who has uttered the most gracious, most loving, most merciful with understanding, most forbearing, most empathetic, most comforting words which have echoed down the centuries warming hearts and giving loving support to offenders of all kinds, ALSO spoke the words of strongest warning about judgment.
In the midst of all His words and deeds which unquestionably supply solace to souls that God understands our needs, there are these words saying " I will tell you Who is the one you need to fear. You need to fear this One whose authority and power have no end to its reach. This is the One you need to fear."
I take His word at face value.
My only o reaction to God is not dread of a ultimate Judge. But my reaction to God include also that factor. And I teach it too.
Holistically, doesn't it make sense that an Ultimate God is ultimate it varied aspects of His character ?
You are the one objecting the most "HOW in the world can eternal punishment be ultimate justice?"
You have a point.
But I think we do not realize Who it was bleeding, dying for us on that cross.
Originally posted by sonshipWhat you are saying doesn't make sense and does not have a coherent moral underpinning to my way of thinking. I am not trying to de-convert you and I don't want you to follow me.Countless times when I have told you that what you just told me to believe didn't make sense or seemed immoral to me,
Did I ?
I think I cannot tell you to believe.
I think you have argued something like -
"But I can't believe what I don't believe."
And I have decided that you are right.
Now the immoral part, I assume you ...[text shortened]... ave a point.
But I think we do not realize Who it was bleeding, dying for us on that cross.
17 Jun 16
Originally posted by KellyJayA discussion about how people try to stifle discussion is a valid discussion to have on a debate and discussion forum. You seeming, with your question, to accuse someone who starts such a discussion of setting a trap to start a "fruitless discussion", strikes me as an example of how people try to stifle discussion even when it is a valid discussion to have
So is this your trap to start one of these fruitless discussions?
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17 Jun 16
3 edits
Originally posted by FMFMe, me is not the issue.
What you are saying doesn't make sense and does not have a coherent moral underpinning to my way of thinking. I am not trying to de-convert you and I don't want you to follow me.
Let's say you do not want to "convert" me. You just want to show me that I was never really "converted" to begin with.
So if I explain what it is to be "converted" you come behind me to show that its not really "conversion" at all. In fact you were once "converted" for twenty years. And you now know there is no such thing as real "conversion." .
Perhaps "conversion" is not as good a term as "receiving Christ" to "live by Christ."
It is not a merely personal matter that I am persistent to offer reply concerning. It is a matter of the reliability of the Scripture well understood. Maybe I don't do a good job of making it well understood to some people. But I try.
So me and me is not my concern as if personal vindication is all that is at stack.
Now on this thread I may help some people to realize that they can be "trapped" away from experiencing Christ. And maybe I can help them to the way of getting free - FOR - the experience of Jesus Christ. . That's what's important to me.
As someone here loves to remember - "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free".