The post that was quoted here has been removed

I think those are very good questions you ask.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Not necessarily. As rightly pointed out by daniel58 we do in fact enact some laws for our own good and despite our society respecting free will to a fairly high degree, we do have some laws that put our greater good higher than our free will. For example suicide is strictly illegal.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
So thats a "no" I take it.
Whats the difference between murder and killing anyway? Unless its 'manslaughter' ,ie.unintentional killing. But thats beside the point anyway.

Killing is sometimes, okay, like in war, murder is never right.

Originally posted by daniel58
Killing is sometimes, okay, like in war, murder is never right.

Theres another thing with you-saying stuff like that.In my experience spiritualty has never been equated with violence.
I know where you are coming from but cant you see that your attitude is just 'creating' more of the same.more war.You say its ok ,so it becomes ok,when clearly it is not ok. Nobody wants to be killed Its bad fullstop.
Consider the bhuddist monks who set themselves on fire rather than being captured and tortured in wartimes.Now that is Faith.
I remember a story from an ex-vet who said that when he saw a monk burning himself it was such a powerful experience for him personally that it made him detest all violence for the rest of his life.

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And I agree with you there. I think daniel58 argued that the law would deter you from committing certain sins and thus save you from a certain amount of punishment from God later on. But I agree with you that even if that is a side effect, that is not what the law itself claims to be about.

Originally posted by daniel58
Killing is sometimes, okay, like in war, murder is never right.

I would say killing in self defense may not be so bad, but killing in war is not simply 'okay'. It is only not equivalent to murder when it too is self defense. The question becomes even tougher when we deal with the Iraq war where the people supposedly being 'defended' did not actually motivate the war themselves. I guess that falls under an extension to 'self defense' ie defense of others.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Theres another thing with you-saying stuff like that.In my experience spiritualty has never been equated with violence.
I know where you are coming from but cant you see that your attitude is just 'creating' more of the same.more war.You say its ok ,so it becomes ok,when clearly it is not ok. Nobody wants to be killed Its bad fullstop.
Consider the bh ...[text shortened]... l experience for him personally that it made him detest all violence for the rest of his life.

Suicide is even worse, but let me say this God, yes GOD, let the Israelites win a battle they were fighting, ONLY when Moses was holding up his hands, when he put them down they started to lose and when he put them up again they started to win again, plus theirs lots of other Old Testament stories where God helped the victors, now don't ever tell me again that all war is bad or God doesn't approve of any wars!

Originally posted by daniel58
Suicide is even worse, but let me say this God, yes GOD, let the Israelites win a battle they were fighting, ONLY when Moses was holding up his hands, when he put them down they started to lose and when he put them up again they started to win again, plus theirs lots of other Old Testament stories where God helped the victors, now don't ever tell me again that all war is bad or God doesn't approve of any wars!

You have apparently shown that God supported one side in particular wars (or was just showing off - its not very clear). However, you haven't shown that this action of Gods made the war 'good' or even the action of partaking in the war. Even if we assume that God only does good things, he still may have been working for the 'greater good' and thus allowed the Israelites to do some bad things - or even encouraged them to - for that greater good. I don't think anyone would be able to successfully argue that there are certain actions that are inherently so bad that there is no 'greater good' that can counteract them. Certainly the principle that God can cause bad things to happen for the greater good is firmly established in the Bible is it not? If anything it is used to explain a large number of Gods seemingly 'bad' actions.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You have apparently shown that God supported one side in particular wars (or was just showing off - its not very clear). However, you haven't shown that this action of Gods made the war 'good' or even the action of partaking in the war. Even if we assume that God only does good things, he still may have been working for the 'greater good' and thus allowed ...[text shortened]... not? If anything it is used to explain a large number of Gods seemingly 'bad' actions.

Gedeon delivered Israel from their enemies, their battle cry was "The sword of the Lord and of Gedeon", soldiers are most of the time are brave, have courage, are just defending their country, I have a brother who's a soldier, doing what he thinks he should and is right, now what's wrong or bad about that?

Originally posted by daniel58
Gedeon delivered Israel from their enemies, their battle cry was "The sword of the Lord and of Gedeon", soldiers are most of the time are brave, have courage, are just defending their country, I have a brother who's a soldier, doing what he thinks he should and is right, now what's wrong or bad about that?

My line of thought on this matter has to do with 'Thinking' about killing and not the actual killing itself.
Like if we keep thinking that war and killing are a justifiable way of 'living together' then it will continue to be that way.

Ever read the Bagavad-gita?
Like just a short synopsis?
Its very good at dealing with a lot of the moral and ethical questions that surround war.
Dont be judgemental just because it is not a christian book . The information contained within it are pertinant to all humans and their philosophies.

Originally posted by daniel58
Gedeon delivered Israel from their enemies, their battle cry was "The sword of the Lord and of Gedeon", soldiers are most of the time are brave, have courage, are just defending their country, I have a brother who's a soldier, doing what he thinks he should and is right, now what's wrong or bad about that?

soldiers are most of the time are brave, have courage, are just defending their country

Like the Iraqi's?

Like the Palestinians?

Like the Chechens?

Like the Afghans?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b] soldiers are most of the time are brave, have courage, are just defending their country

Like the Iraqi's?

Like the Palestinians?

Like the Chechens?

Like the Afghans?[/b]

Like Americans.

Originally posted by daniel58
soldiers are most of the time are brave, have courage, are just defending their country

On both sides? Surely most of the time, at least one party is not 'defending their country'? Certainly in the case of the Iraq was the US soldiers were not defending their country (except possibly from an oil shortage, but even that is a bit far fetched.)

I have a brother who's a soldier, doing what he thinks he should and is right, now what's wrong or bad about that?
Being patriotic doesn't make you right. If your country is wrong, what you do on its behalf is also wrong. OK I realize it isn't really so clear cut, but I certainly don't think "doing what you think is right" makes you right, nor do I think that what the US has done in terms of international conflict has been right.

Originally posted by twhitehead
On both sides? Surely most of the time, at least one party is not 'defending their country'? Certainly in the case of the Iraq was the US soldiers were [b]not defending their country (except possibly from an oil shortage, but even that is a bit far fetched.)

I have a brother who's a soldier, doing what he thinks he should and is right, now what' ...[text shortened]... do I think that what the US has done in terms of international conflict has been right.

No I don't totally agree with it either but, don't blame the soldiers for it.