29 Sep 07
5 edits
Originally posted by whodeyI said this in jest of coarse. However, I think I have made my point. There is a dichotomy of sorts in regards to the God of the Bible. There seems to be apparent contradictions when it comes to God's nature. We see a God of love and a God of judgement. Is this possible? We see a God of life and a God who takes life at times. Is this possible? There is sin/suffering in the world as well as love. How can this be if a God of love is in control of all of creation? How can sin/love cohabitate together? Then again, is it possible to love and not open oneself up to suffering? Must we also do the same in order to have loving relationships? From a Christian perspective, did not God himself come to earth and suffer as we do in the form of Christ incarnate? In fact, Christ seemed to suffer much more than we ever have or could imagine and it was all done in love for us so that we might have life. So here are the possibilities in regards to the God of the Bible if he exists. Either God enjoys suffering in terms of personal suffering as well as watching others suffer or it is simply a risk one takes for loving. I propose the later.
You tell me. I suppose God was trying to live up to his monster image, no?
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by whodeyWhat 'risk' is there if one knows the outcome? If you know for a certainty that you are going to
Either God enjoys suffering in terms of personal suffering as well as watching others suffer or it is simply a risk one takes for loving. I propose the later.
roll three double-sixes with two six-sided dice, and you bet on it, what was the risk of losing money?
None, of course. God knew what the result of Jesus' suffering was going to be. He knew it would
have the sort of affect it was going to levy in the first century, the fifth century, the fifteenth century
and today. He knew how many believers there would be and how many would turn away. He knew
that Islam, Christian Schism, Deism, Mormonism, Christian Science, Scientology, and secularism
were going to spring up even before Jesus.
So, why do you think that the method that God used -- one that is clearly brutal and one that has
had limited effectiveness, both immediately and over time -- was the best or only one?
If you were God, could you think of a better way to encourage people to be followers of God?
Nemesio
29 Sep 07
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioYou are right in that God knew beforehand what was to come. However, what were the alternatives?
What 'risk' is there if one knows the outcome? If you know for a certainty that you are going to
roll three double-sixes with two six-sided dice, and you bet on it, what was the risk of losing money?
None, of course. God knew what the result of Jesus' suffering was going to be. He knew it would
have the sort of affect it was going to levy in the first ...[text shortened]... e God, could you think of a better way to encourage people to be followers of God?
Nemesio
1. Creation could have been under his direct control, thus they would have been forced to serve him.
2. He could have chosen not to create.
3. He could create with his creation having the option not to serve him or to serve him.
What we have today is the later option and I think the best option.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by whodeyInteresting again how you don't answer the question.
You are right in that God knew beforehand what was to come. However, what were the alternatives?
1. Creation could have been under his direct control, thus they would have been forced to serve him.
2. He could have chosen not to create.
3. He could create with his creation having the option not to serve him or to serve him.
What we have today is the later option and I think the best option.
Recall that you said:
[God] maliciously threw the sins of the world on his only begotten Son as he was being slowly tortured to death.
To which I responded:
Why do you suppose this was the only or best way to do this?
I further clarified by asking:
So, why do you think that the method that God used -- one that is clearly brutal and one that has
had limited effectiveness, both immediately and over time -- was the best or only one?
If you were God, could you think of a better way to encourage people to be followers of God?
Nemesio
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by epic0002Don't have to , you just need to be able to read. Baptisim in water and being filled with the spirit is a bonus but not an essential to being saved , faith in christ is essential. All cults and sects take certain scriptures out of context and exaggerate them to create a non-scriptural initiation technique that they use to intimidate new members with and then discredit mainstream religion also. I have seen these wolves in sheeps clothing at work close hand . I know what I am talking about.
Enlighten us all on what God really meant.
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterWouldn't you say that many parts of the Apostles' and Nicene Creed entail non-Scriptural interpretation?
All cults and sects take certain scriptures out of context and exaggerate them to create a non-scriptural initiation technique that they use to intimidate new members with and then discredit mainstream religion also.
Nemesio
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by Jay JoosWhen you receive Christ as your Lord and Savior you are saved from ALL sins....past, present, and FUTURE. Christ died as atonement for every sin that was ever and will ever be committed.
You are forgiven for Past ....PAST sins.... when you sin after that then the Christian has to recognise they have sinned and ask forgiveness!
29 Sep 07
Originally posted by Jay JoosNo doubt all sins require repentance, but your insinuation that salvation can be lost is biblically incorrect.
You are forgiven for Past ....PAST sins.... when you sin after that then the Christian has to recognise they have sinned and ask forgiveness!
If salvation could be lost, why did Jesus say in John 10:28 that He gives eternal life and that His sheep will NEVER perish? If salvation can be lost, then Christ should have said, "and they may perish..." or, "they CAN perish." But He said, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH.
So, will they never perish? Or can they?
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterNoT Essential? Mark 16:16 He that believeth AND is Baptized shall be saved... I cant take that out of context. Acts 2:38 says that Baptism is for the remission of sins.
Don't have to , you just need to be able to read. Baptisim in water and being filled with the spirit is a bonus but not an essential to being saved , faith in christ is essential. All cults and sects take certain scriptures out of context and exaggerate them to create a non-scriptural initiation technique that they use to intimidate new members with an ...[text shortened]... have seen these wolves in sheeps clothing at work close hand . I know what I am talking about.
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by RamnedBaptism is a work.
Getting Baptized isn't as important as living through the principles of moderation, faith, integrity, and respect. That's what saves you; good works - doing good works behind other people's backs is what God sees.
God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.
30 Sep 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epic0002Consider this passage:
NoT Essential? Mark 16:16 He that believeth AND is Baptized shall be saved... I cant take that out of context. Acts 2:38 says that Baptism is for the remission of sins.
"I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17).
If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation.
Let's suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved? Of course he is.
Let's further suppose that this person who confesses his sinfulness, cries out in repentance to the Lord, and receives Jesus as Savior, then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism isn't necessary for salvation. If He goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, isn't enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)? Yes it does. Baptism is not necessary for salvation.
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by epiphinehas1. Paul did not people to be followers of him.. vs 15 "lest any should say i had baptized in mine own name.. please read the verses when you write them on here.
Consider this passage:
"I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17).
If ...[text shortened]... 3) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)? Yes it does. Baptism is not necessary for salvation.
2. we are not to judge who gets saved and who doesnt.. 1Cor. 1:25 the foolishness of God is wiser than man. All we can do is read the bible and follow the commandments for OURSELVES not to say who goes to heaven or hell.Act 41-47, The LORD added daily such as should be saved.
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by epic0002So what about the guy who believes in and receives Christ, but dies while walking across the street to get baptized: is he going to heaven or hell?
1. Paul did not people to be followers of him.. vs 15 "lest any should say i had baptized in mine own name.. please read the verses when you write them on here.
2. we are not to judge who gets saved and who doesnt.. 1Cor. 1:25 the foolishness of God is wiser than man. All we can do is read the bible and follow the commandments for OURSELVES not to say who goes to heaven or hell.Act 41-47, The LORD added daily such as should be saved.