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I have a few scattered comments for this thread.
We should not think of eternal life as merely living forever. God has angels that live forever.
When Christ says "I am the resurrection and the life ..." and when it says " In Him was life " it means this gift of eternal life is God Himself - the uncreated and Divine Person imparted into the receiver.
In John 3:16 where Jesus said "Whosoever believes might not perish but have eternal life" He means might have God Himself. It is the addition of God Himself into man. It is the incorporation of God Himself within man that is the "eternal life" .
He who has the Son has the life (1 John 5:12).
And the "eternal life" is in God Himself and in the One Whom He has sent.
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
THIS is the true God and eternal life. The "this" is the whole realm of being in the True God and in He whom He has sent, Jesus Christ. The Triune God is the eternal life He gives to the saved. In giving Himself to men He gives them the eternal life. He blends with them.
This is more than just living forever. This is living compounded with the Triune God. Christ repeats that He is the life - "I am the way and the truth and the life ..." (John 14:6)
The ultimate gift of God is God Himself dispensed into man. And this is really more than any human being ever dreamed to ask. Sure, the ancient Egyptians and others longed to live an everlasting life. Man has often longed to live forever. But God's salvation is beyond what man has ever sought to ask for. It is really to be one with God Himself.
As I said, God has plenty of angels that live forever. They are not "organically" one with God in a blended and united way. Man is a being that can be mingled with God, compounded with God in an "organic" blending. And this is the eternal life which God gives to the redeemed.
In my opinion this is above and beyond what any human being has ever sought.
Now to the comment about Bizarro Justice. I would say that what men should expect, rather than bizarro justice, is amazingly fair justice. I mean it. What I strongly suspect each person will experience before God is astoundingly and profoundly amazing complete knowledge of ALL of the contributing factors to one's actions.
What I expect is that human beings before God will be astounded at how fair, equitable, just God is in knowing so much more than what we knew. The total circumstances, the total contributing factors, the presently unknown (by us) surrounding matters concerning our lives.
Rather than the resentment of unfair treatment from the omniscient Judge I suspect there will be the awe of how truly fair God was in knowing all the matters related to us.
It is then it will be realized by some, how foolish is was not to accept the offer of redemption in the substitutionary and atoning death of Christ. I honestly think no one will be left thinking that God was unfair. Every accusing mouth will be stopped. That is what I expect.
The lost sinner will realize that his prison is locked from the inside rather than from the outside. The awe of confronting perfect divine judgment will close every mouth.
To the question that divegeester had, I would refer to dreadful passages like Revelation 20:10 and Rev. 14:10,11 which clearly disprove annihilation or non-existence as a final punishment for the lost. And I hate to start a whole thread on such a negative matter. But a conscious existence in punishment is what we see in the New Testament.
It is possible that only the very worst is what the Bible reveals because God wants man to avoid separation from Himself at all costs. If you want your children to avoid prison altogether and any cost, you tell them the worst things about prison. You want them to completely avoid the place.
It should be contemplated that the lost rich man in Luke 16:19-31, once opening up his eyes in damnation, does not request to be taken out. He only desires a moment of relief. He never requests to be delivered out of his state. Why? Somehow it seems that he knows there is no other place for him to be.
"And he called out and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this flame." (Luke 16:24)
Note - NO request to leave. Only a request for some cessation of misery, for some temporary relief.
Perhaps the pain of stepping out of that final prison into the light of God's truth and love is more unpleasant than to just be in that God forsaken realm. I do not know. But there is no sense of repentance at all in the man, as if he accepts what his self chosen destiny has become. He only requests a short break in the continuity of the misery.
But I want to end this post on a positive note. The eternal life is just God Himself mingled with the saved human being so that the human lives in God and God lives in them. Obtaining God Himself we obtain more than mere non-ending life as any of the angels have. We obtain oneness with God.
Originally posted by sonshipThanks for your "few scattered comments" which touch on the intimacy and fulfillment of the Royal Family, Body of Christ, in this dispensation becoming the Bride of Christ at the Marriage Supper of The Lamb in Heaven for eternity. I also appreciate your focus on God's Absolute Justice and Righteousness (Divine Integrity) in the face of which one day every knee will bow in reverential awe. In the vernacular, God Almighty is nobody to screw around with by testing His Patience and Mercy on March 31, 2014, or ever! One final thought for my friends and almost friends: eternity is one helluva long, long while....
I have a few scattered comments for this thread.
We should not think of [b]eternal life as merely living forever. God has angels that live forever.
When Christ says "I am the resurrection and the life ..." and when it says " In Him was life " it means this gift of eternal life is God Himself - the uncreated and Div ...[text shortened]... we obtain more than mere non-ending life as any of the angels have. We obtain oneness with God.[/b]
Originally posted by sonshipDo you concur with Grampy Bobby's claim that people who are "unbelievers" will suffer being burnt in a fire forever?
Now to the comment about Bizarro Justice. I would say that what men should expect, rather than bizarro justice, is [b]amazingly fair justice. I mean it. What I strongly suspect each person will experience before God is astoundingly and profoundly amazing complete knowledge of ALL of the contributing factors to one's actions.[/b]
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Originally posted by FMFYes, the unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire.
Do you concur with Grampy Bobby's claim that people who are "unbelievers" will suffer being burnt in a fire forever?
If it is literal or symbolic it is clearly something as bad or worse and to be saved from.
The closing scene of the last judgment says this -
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15).
I do know that the "book of life" is also called "the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8)
The expression the Lamb definitely refers to Jesus Christ. It is the Lamb's book of life. It is Christ's book of life. The Lamb of God is the Redeemer of sinners, the Savior of the world.
That is what I do know.
What I may not know is all the ways in which the name of a person will be written in the Lamb's book of life. That may contain some unknowns to me.
I do know that if someone's name is not written in the Redeemer's book of life he will be cast into the lake of fire -
" And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works. (v.12)
And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (v.15)
Whatever other unknown way a person's name may possibly be written in the book of life, it is abundantly clear that believing in the Lord Jesus Christ the Lamb of God, one will be saved. Their name will be entered into the book of life.
I also know that when the final scene of the end of the age is given, the word of God says that the unbelieving go to the lake of fire.
"But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolators and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimestone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)
Now this list of things is not exhaustive. It is just a sample as representative. But notice the first two matters - "the cowardly and unbelieving" .
Cowardly - Maybe this refers to people who know the truth about Christ but are afraid to trust themselves to Christ. Maybe the cowardly KNOW He is the Savior but are afraid to believe into Him.
The "unbelieving" - obviously are those who don't believe in God / Christ.
Perhaps the cowardly kind of believe but for fear of what men will say, keep themselves back from God, from Christ.
There is one more passage I would refer to - Second Thessalonians 1:7-9 . And my interpretation I do not count as infallible. But this passage says:
" ... the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire,
Rendering vengence to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength." (2 Thess. 1:7-9)
I take the word of God as infallible. My interpretation of a passage may not be infallible.
This passage perhaps reveals two matters which will bring one into eternal punishment:
1.) those who do not know God
2.) Those ... who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
You asked me if I believed that all the unbelieving will be punished forever.
My answer is yes. And my added statements may show that there are some unknown matters contributing to the final judgement.
Suppose one has not heard the Gospel of Christ to obey it, yet he knows God ?
Suppose one's name is entered into the Lamb's book of life in some way unknown by us at present?
These caveats I do not think negate the famous passage that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.
" Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
[There it is again. Jesus is "the life" ... the divine and eternal life of God. ]
I believe that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.
If someone comes to the Father only knowing God and not having heard the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ in order to obey it, it will only have been because he came through Jesus Christ. For no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.
IF someone comes to the Father having their name written in the book of life because of some way unknown to me today, it will only be because he came through Jesus Christ, because no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.
Does that answer your question to me? So we have to make sure we who have heard of the Son of God, Jesus, believe into Him.
Originally posted by sonshipAnd this pain and torture by fire goes on forever ~ there is no death to bring it to an end? Grampy Bobby's central point is that this suffering lasts for eternity.
Yes, the unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire.
If it is literal or symbolic it is [b]clearly something as bad or worst and to be saved from.[/b]
Originally posted by sonshipHave you ever had a friend or relative that suffered very serious burns to the body and held on for a while ~ in an almost unparalleled kind of agony ~ before eventually dying? If you have, then you will know about the kind of agony that being burnt causes. Are you claiming that "unbelievers" will suffer this kind of agony forever without being 'able" to escape it by dying?
You asked me if I believed that all the unbelieving will be punished forever.
My answer is yes.
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Originally posted by FMF
And this pain and torture by fire goes on forever ~ there is no death to bring it to an end? Grampy Bobby's central point is that this suffering lasts for eternity.
How would you analyze these words ?
" And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:11)
I would interpret those words to mean that the devil, the false prophet, the beast will be tormented day and night for eternity.
It is explicit and I would not advise anyone to be so curious as to join them to see if they will have a different result.
How would you interpret these words?
" ... He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:10,11)
How would you analyze that these had no rest day and night? What would you think God is trying to communicate to us by describing that "the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever" ?
I would think what is being communicated there is that suffering is without end forever. That is the explicit description of these followers of the Antichrist. I would not advise any to be so curious to join them in that place to see if they get a different result.
What is communicated about said lake of fire is horrific.
Now you can also interpret this:
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and on one can snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (JOhn 10:27-30)
You have on one hand the horrific lake of fire.
And on the other hand you have the Son's hand of love and the Father's hand of power assuring the saved that they shall never perish forever.
So we need to believe into Jesus Christ. His hand and the hand of His Father will assure that we will not perish forever.
Originally posted by sonship
"But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolators and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimestone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)
Originally posted by sonship
Cowardly - Maybe this refers to people who know the truth about Christ but are afraid to trust themselves to Christ. Maybe the cowardly KNOW He is the Savior but are afraid to believe into Him.
Cowardly? How can sticking to what you genuinely believe, even in the face of ghastly threats of violence and physical torture, be described as "cowardly"?
Originally posted by sonshipAnd this hideous suffering ~ visited upon people who have different beliefs from you and Grampy Bobby ~ is, you claim, "amazingly fair justice"?
I would think what is being communicated there is that suffering is without end forever. That is the explicit description of these followers of the Antichrist. I would not advise any to be so curious to join them in that place to see if they get a different result.