Originally posted by divegeesterI think he was lashing out with the... They may indeed earn a name of being clever and smart. But are they really clever and smart? This is only deceitfulness and craftiness. Most of the people in the world who are clever and smart are actually deceitful and crafty ...thing. When in Full Pout, he has said very similar things to me on several occasions. I think the subsequent attempt to spin it as meaning the 'clever and smart ... deceitful and crafty...' obviously also applied to sonship ~ I think that spin is a tad economical with the truth.
I think sonship may have been lying about the post on page one. It's no biggie from my point of view, I'm no angel myself.
Originally posted by FMFYes you may be correct, but it felt like it was directed at me and although I thought it a cheap shot it was not until he denied it that the post took on a more significant emphasis within the thread topic of lying.
I think he was lashing out with the... They may indeed earn a name of being clever and smart. But are they really clever and smart? This is only deceitfulness and craftiness. Most of the people in the world who are clever and smart are actually deceitful and crafty ...thing. When in Full Pout, he has said very similar things to me on several occasions. I ...[text shortened]... ty...' obviously also applied to sonship ~ I think that spin is a tad economical with the truth.
I have no real issue with it either way; what I have issue with is all these self anointed so called Christians in this forum having a go at me because I speak my own mind on these matters,such as eternal suffering, and I don't toe the party line. I find it astonishing what's be said to me actually.
Originally posted by sonshipWe seem to be hung up on the word all, which would include you and me and anyone else you care to mention.
None of us have never told a lie, with the exception perhaps of those who are unable to speak. And that is arguable also.
All liars refers to all of us. In the lake of fire. For eternity.
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Originally posted by HandyAndyHandyAndy, do you remember what I said about the Revelation passage BEFORE either 21:8 or 22:15 ?
We seem to be hung up on the word all, which would include you and me and anyone else you care to mention.
All liars refers to all of us. In the lake of fire. For eternity.
That was in the other thread. I will repeat it now for you if you do not remember. I said that before you arrive at the verse about all liars you have 20:15 -
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
And I said that as to WHO ends up in the lake of fire, you should let this verse be the main principled definition of those who go to that place.
You should not say "I am a liar. You are a liar. He and she are liars as well. So there is no other destiny for us but the lake of fire."
This would be wrong. You may say "We all are liars of one sort or another and deserve to go to the of fire." But the New Testament is teaching that we have the opportunity -
1.) To have our names written in the book of life and thus be saved from that destiny.
2.) To have our personalities transformed through sanctification so that we are no longer liars by the coming of the new heaven and new earth which follows the last judgment, but rather be without spot or blemish before God - holy and conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by sonshipInteresting theory, but it needs to be fleshed out.
HandyAndy, do you remember what I said about the Revelation passage BEFORE either 21:8 or 22:15 ?
That was in the other thread. I will repeat it now for you if you do not remember. I said that before you arrive at the verse about all liars you have 20:15 -
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake ...[text shortened]... rather be without spot or blemish before God - holy and conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
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Originally posted by HandyAndySo we substantiate it a bit.
Interesting theory, but it needs to be fleshed out.
I would start by speaking of the salvation of the believers in Christ. Their full salvation has two aspects - a judicial aspect and an organic aspect.
Or we may say there is a aspect which is positional and another which is dispositional.
For example in Romans 5:10.
"For if we being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled."
The "judicial" aspect of salvation is that the believers are reconciled to God as no longer enemies through the death of Christ on His cross. His redemption has positioned them in a standing that they are no longer enemies of God. Therefore they will never perish in eternal punishment.
The "organic" aspect is about them being "saved" and that "much more" in the whole realm of His indwelling life. That is because Jesus Christ has entered into them the reconciled will much more so be saved in their personalities in the sphere of His life.
All past sins are under the blood of Christ, judged by God and forgotten by God forever. They are reconciled to God.
Having BEEN reconciled they, much more, will be organically transformed in the whole realm of the indwelling life of Christ. That is saved in His life. That is the sinning nature is dealt with in preparation for their eternal living with God.
This is a beginning to clarify the "interesting theory" as you say. We liars need to be judicially positioned to have eternal redemption. And we liars need the transforming salvation in the realm of Jesus Christ living in us. And this is a "much more" salvation in His resurrection life.
Christ can live within man - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Do you understand this brief word?
Judicial redemption + Organic salvation.
1.) To have our names written in the book of life and thus be saved from that destiny.
2.) To have our personalities transformed through sanctification so that we are no longer liars by the coming of the new heaven and new earth which follows the last judgment, but rather be without spot or blemish before God - holy and conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by sonshipIt seems to require blind faith more than reason or judgment.
So we substantiate it a bit.
I would start by speaking of the salvation of the believers in Christ. Their full salvation has two aspects - a judicial aspect and an organic aspect.
Or we may say there is a aspect which is positional and another which is dispositional.
For example in [b]Romans 5:10.
"For if we being enemies, were reconcile ...[text shortened]... e without spot or blemish before God - holy and conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. [/quote]
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Originally posted by HandyAndy
It seems to require blind faith more than reason or judgment.
It seems to require blind faith more than reason or judgment.
It is not blind faith but a faith with confirmation that one is on the right track to ask Jesus to be Lord.
It is not blind faith but coming to the realization that Jesus Christ is believable. This Person, all things considered, is believable. The power of His words are matched by the power of His acts and especially His resurrection from the dead.
Not only is a Person like Jesus Christ believable though maybe astounding, the virtual autobiographical material we have in a letter like Second Corinthians offers to many a convincing evidence that someone pioneered the way in experiencing the indwelling Spirit of Christ.
Paul's pioneering life shows others down through the ages the way to practically get into living unto Christ, living Christ Himself and allowing Christ to enter and live again this time within us.
This matter of Jesus being in a form in which He could enter into the innermost spiritual being of people, He Himself promised.
"Judas, not Isacariot, said to Him, Lord, and what has happened that You are to manifest Yourself to us and not to the world?
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:22,23)
This explains a lot about what happened to us when we opened our hearts to let this unusual yet living Person come into our lives. It is faith with a great deal of confirmation and explanation about HOW it is we are able to be changed when all other efforts failed before.
Jesus as "life giving Spirit" came to us in a form in which He can compound His very life into ours.
Originally posted by sonshipYou believe because you want to, not because of any reliable evidence.
It is not blind faith but a faith with confirmation that one is on the right track to ask Jesus to be Lord.
It is not blind faith but coming to the realization that Jesus Christ is believable. This Person, all things considered, is believable. The power of His words are matched by the power of His acts and especially His resurrection from ...[text shortened]... s as "life giving Spirit" came to us in a form in which He can compound His very life into ours.
You believe because you can't face life without spiritual smoke and mirrors.
Originally posted by divegeesterThe second death is being tormented in the Lake of fire and Brimstone forever and ever. That is opposite from eternal life, except for the eternal part.
It is estimated that there are now more people alive on earth than have ever lived; an extraordinary statistic if accurate, let's suppose it is and estimate that there are 6,000,000,000 currently on earth and 6,000,000,000 who have lived before, that's 12,000,000,000 people. A nice biblical 12.
Let's suppose that at a generous guess 1,000,000,000 peop ...[text shortened]... ous error. But I'll fry myself just for saying that according to some here.
C'est la vie...
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Originally posted by HandyAndy
You believe because you want to, not because of any reliable evidence.
You believe because you can't face life without spiritual smoke and mirrors.
You believe because you want to, not because of any reliable evidence.
Beware of the Genetic Fallacy.
I want to believe also that if I jump out in front of a car traveling 60 mph, I'll be killed.
Is it TRUE or NOT. That is what you should be concerned with.
I do want to believe in God because I do not want to be deceived.
At one point I preferred the absence of God.
I got to know that "with God" is a far better way to live.
I did not always want to. I can say with C.S. Lewis that once to speak of me searching for God was like saying a mouse was searching for a cat.
No HandyAndy, not ANY evidence is good. You don't see me ranting about the Shroud of Turin or statues of Mary bleeding or showing tears. In fact you do not see me jumping at ANY evidence.
Evidence for God I DO not pay any attention to:
1.) People dancing with poisoness snakes in their mouth.
2.) Smells in a room which indicate Jesus is the "Rose of Sharon"
3.) Anyone speaking gibberish of supposed "speaking in tongues".
4.) One country being "blessed" necessarily to be an empire over others.
5.) The rate of dust settlement on the moon.
6.) Sea fossils found on top of high mountains.
7.) Any old "testament" purported to be by a disciple or apostle of Jesus.
Many things I would not jump at automatically to be evidence for God's existence.
You believe because you can't face life without spiritual smoke and mirrors.
I believe that there is a spiritual dimension to my life. I believe that if you deny that dimension that you undercut your own humanity.
I believe that my entire human makeup includes a spiritual part and I am not JUST a big cerebrum. And I think if you deny a spiritual dimension to your human make up you are short changing your own humanity.
Originally posted by RJHindsAre you going to address my question to you in sonhouse's thread? I think that if you are either unable to explain your horrible beliefs and claims about why I deserve to burn in hell, or that you are simply too cowardly to, then I will have to assume you are just trolling.
The second death is being tormented in the Lake of fire and Brimstone forever and ever. That is opposite from eternal life, except for the eternal part.
11 Dec 14
Originally posted by sonshipI'm happy that you've discovered your personal spiritual dimension. It must bring you a great deal
I believe that there is a spiritual dimension to my life. I believe that if you deny that dimension that you undercut your own humanity.
I believe that my entire human makeup includes a spiritual part and I am not JUST a big cerebrum. And I think if you deny a spiritual dimension to your human make up you are short changing your own humanity.
of comfort. You'd be wrong, however, to assume that everyone possesses a similar spiritual dimension.
In its place, some of us (the unlucky ones) have a non-spiritual scientific dimension.