07 May 14
Originally posted by yoctobyteYes no one can deny that its the greatest act of love ever, however would you not agree that in order to be a recipient of that love, one needs to exercise faith in its redeeming qualities and thus something is required of the person seeking to be a recipient of this amazing act of love.
I think the expression of God's love is evident in both of these scriptures and are therefore linked, so to speak. Knowing that the sin nature of man would have to be redeemed, God sent his son to die (perfect sacrifice) in our place so we would not have to, we merely accept what was done on the cross and his sacrafice.
I don't know about you but I w ...[text shortened]... e could now again be in communion with God once again. If that is not love, don't know what is.
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07 May 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIncorrect.
Yes no one can deny that its the greatest act of love ever, however would you not agree that in order to be a recipient of that love, one needs to exercise faith in its redeeming qualities and thus something is required of the person seeking to be a recipient of this amazing act of love.
Many people, including me, deny that it's an act of love, let alone a great one.
Originally posted by googlefudgebecause you personally deny something has actually NO real significance as to whether it was a great act of love or not, for example if you personally denied the moon landings does it have even a remote bearing on whether they actually took place or not, hardly for opinion is just that, mere opinion.
Incorrect.
Many people, including me, deny that it's an act of love, let alone a great one.
07 May 14
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieAs I have pointed out to you (several times) in this thread, your OP makes the claim that God's love is conditional and therefore the onus is on you to prove it. You tried in your OP and as I pointed out (several times) you failed quite epically. Please see my early posts in this thread for the detail as you obviously need to read them and casually dismiss them all over again.
I cannot say with any certainty, although what is readily apparent is that no one has been able to proffer any evidence for Gods unconditional love or at least none that is particularly convincing.
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07 May 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAssuming the act happened, it's being an act of love, or not, is indeed independent of my beliefs about it.
because you personally deny something has actually NO real significance as to whether it was a great act of love or not, for example if you personally denied the moon landings does it have even a remote bearing on whether they actually took place or not, hardly for opinion is just that, mere opinion.
However, you said that nobody could deny it.
Yes no one can deny that its the greatest act of love ever
THAT is absolutely dependent on what I, and others think/do.
GIVEN that I deny it, it is in fact false to say that nobody can deny it.
I just did.
Do try to keep up.
07 May 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieGod loves us regardless of whether we choose him or not. If your child decided to go out and do something that was not very conducive to living a wholesome life, would you love him/her any less? No, you would still love your child even if wrong choices are being made. I don't believe one needs to do anything to be loved by God unconditionally.
Yes no one can deny that its the greatest act of love ever, however would you not agree that in order to be a recipient of that love, one needs to exercise faith in its redeeming qualities and thus something is required of the person seeking to be a recipient of this amazing act of love.
One does need to exercise faith in Jesus and his sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins, but I don't believe this is a condition to be loved by God. Sin will be punished, sin cannot exist in the presence of God, if you are in sin and have not accepted the sacrifice of Jesus, you will die with sin.
I hope that answers your question.
07 May 14
Originally posted by yoctobyteyeah kind of but its a little sketchy if you dont mind me saying. Certainly it was a loving act and as Paul; states 'God loved us first', whether it can be seen as evidence of Gods unconditional love I dont know. It also appears to me that the analogy of a parent and a child does not work in this instance for I am not altogether convinced that God is swayed by sentiment in the same that a human is.
God loves us regardless of whether we choose him or not. If your child decided to go out and do something that was not very conducive to living a wholesome life, would you love him/her any less? No, you would still love your child even if wrong choices are being made. I don't believe one needs to do anything to be loved by God unconditionally.
One ...[text shortened]... ot accepted the sacrifice of Jesus, you will die with sin.
I hope that answers your question.
Yes it can be said that God, 'feels', after all Israel caused him 'pain', but one must remember than God deals in justice as well and punished them severely for iniquity. I dont think a human parent is capable of that kind of justice.
Originally posted by googlefudge
Assuming the act happened, it's being an act of love, or not, is indeed independent of my beliefs about it.
However, you said that nobody could deny it.
Yes [b]no one can denythat its the greatest act of love ever
THAT is absolutely dependent on what I, and others think/do.
GIVEN that I deny it, it is in fact false to say that nobody can deny it.
I just did.
Do try to keep up.[/b]your belief about it is irrelevant to anyone but you and those who are willing to endorse your beliefs. It has no consequence whether it was in reality an act of love or not. So yes you may contest that not everyone will deny its an act of love, but its simply a figure of speech and not meant to be taken literally, but if pedantry is the best you can do then its the best you can do.
07 May 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAs with any analogy i believe, when it comes to comparing something to God it will always fall short, because we do not fully understand him in his fullness.
yeah kind of but its a little sketchy if you dont mind me saying. Certainly it was a loving act and as Paul; states 'God loved us first', whether it can be seen as evidence of Gods unconditional love I dont know. It also appears to me that the analogy of a parent and a child does not work in this instance for I am not altogether convinced that God ...[text shortened]... hed them severely for iniquity. I dont think a human parent is capable of that kind of justice.
08 May 14
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieStep back just a second here and please remind yourself that in order to receive ANY act of love from ANYONE, you must first believe that their love exists and is real.
Yes no one can deny that its the greatest act of love ever, however would you not agree that in order to be a recipient of that love, one needs to exercise faith in its redeeming qualities and thus something is required of the person seeking to be a recipient of this amazing act of love.
This is the problem with automatically gainsaying anything involved with God. After awhile, it becomes obvious that you are just automatically gainsaying just because it has to do with God.
Edit: Okay, Maybe I should apologize. Because of the content of that post, I just assumed I was replying to one of the atheists here. 😕
08 May 14
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Monsignor Charles Pope, pastor of Holy Comforter-St. Cyprian, of the Archdiochese of Washington, D.C. explains how God's love can be unconditional and conditional at the same time.
Let’s say I walk up to you and you are carrying two large boxes filled with books you value. I am holding two other boxes filled with cash amounting to $50 million in large bills. I offer these boxes to you freely, without charge. No strings attached. My offer to you is unconditional. Take them, they are yours. So, my offer is unconditional. However, from your perspective there is a condition. You must first put down the boxes filled with books you value and then take up the boxes filled with money that I offer. Hence there is a condition you must meet to receive my unconditional offer. MY offer is unconditional but you must overcome an obstacle. Your full arms must be emptied. The condition is not on my side but on yours.
Hence, the quotes which seem to place conditions on God’s love may only be conditions from our side of the equation. God can love us unconditionally and offer his love for free. But in order for us to receive and experience that love it may be necessary for us to empty our arms from sin, from worldly attachments and the like. We cannot carry both sets of boxes. We cannot serve God and Mammon. So it is possible to argue that God’s love IS unconditional even as we accept texts which declare that something in us must change for us to truly receive this unconditional offer of God.
http://blog.adw.org/2010/02/is-gods-love-really-unconditional/
08 May 14
Originally posted by yoctobyteLet me show you the topic in one sentence:
You are not really interested in the topic, you are just interested in criticizing and do it consistently.
God's love is unconditional, plain and simple. It does not rely on anything we do or not do.
How do you define the word "unconditional". I use it in the sense "without conditions". Don't you?
Yes, absolutely.
"Gods love is unconditional, provided you don't sin."
For me this is a paradox. And if it is so important for christians to say that god loves us unconditionally, then their belief is based on this paradox.
Because either is it unconditional, or it is not. Is it unconditional then you cannot have a condition attached to it.
If you take this as criticizing, then so be it. If you don't have any answer to solve this paradox, then you believe in this paradox, and your christian faith is based upon it.
If you in any way see this as an insult towards you specifically, then you should reconsider if you are a freethinker or a fundamentalist.
There are methods to solve this paradox. If you don't find it, then let's discuss it further. Openly. With no hard feelings.
08 May 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasWhat do you think of Monsignor Charles Pope's example of how something can be unconditional from one person's point of view and conditional from the other person's point of view?
Let me show you the topic in one sentence:
"Gods love is unconditional, provided you don't sin."
For me this is a paradox. And if it is so important for christians to say that god loves us unconditionally, then their belief is based on this paradox.
Because either is it unconditional, or it is not. Is it unconditional then you cannot have a conditi ...[text shortened]... his paradox. If you don't find it, then let's discuss it further. Openly. With no hard feelings.
08 May 14
Originally posted by RJHindsThis is not about individual opinions. This is about the view of the christian religion.
What do you think of Monsignor Charles Pope's example of how something can be unconditional from one person's point of view and conditional from the other person's point of view?
Can something be conditional at the same time as it is unconditional?
Can gods love be conditional for some christians and unconditional for other christians and if so, can the two groups simultaneously be right?
I find this as one of the paradoxes in the christian religion.
08 May 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasYou read too deep my friend into something that is not there. To start, I don't see your remarks towards me as criticizing, I have no hard feelings by anything you say and I surely am not insulted by any of your comments... I don't even know you. I would think there should be a relationship in place to feel the sting of another's words, especially from someone with distance. Freethinker, fundamentalist, YEC... you seem to use labels a lot, why not try to understand an individual and where they are vs labeling based on some definition in your own mind? It will get you a little respect and give you more credibility amongst others in the long run.
Let me show you the topic in one sentence:
"Gods love is unconditional, provided you don't sin."
For me this is a paradox. And if it is so important for christians to say that god loves us unconditionally, then their belief is based on this paradox.
Because either is it unconditional, or it is not. Is it unconditional then you cannot have a conditi ...[text shortened]... his paradox. If you don't find it, then let's discuss it further. Openly. With no hard feelings.
It is my observation and belief that you are a pot stirrer, you are more interested in ruffling people's feathers than understanding something which you know little about, which is fine. I have seen ideas and principles explained to you for which you asked questions only to have them trampled under foot and ridiculed, this is not a seeker of the truth, IMO. But if you want to do that and others want to play along than so be it, who am I to care... but I won't.
In the kingdom of God there are many mysteries, some we can understand some we cannot... for right now anyways. God's love for us runs deep and he cares deeply for you and for me, it is unconditional. I have explained already how this could be, but as I stated it is hard to compare something of God in human terms. Jesus Christ is the epitome of God's love towards us, it is unconditional. He sent his son to die for our sins, how can you be more loving than that? One needs to grab a hold of that.
Finally there are no hard feelings to be sure, not even close. I think you should understand something though, as there are many mysteries in the Kingdom of God there are many pearls also and Christians are generally not going to throw the pearls out to be trampled under foot as they are in this forum and subject them to ridicule. The answers to God's love are there, you now just need to open you eyes and see them, you have to want to see them.
Regards.