Spirituality
11 Jul 05
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by KellyJayA paper clip is not functionally complex, it's bent metal for holding paper together.
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Defining functionally complexity:
When it is said that something is getting more "functionally complex"
what is it that is being said?
Kelly
A combustion engine is moreso, and a human brain is probably very functionally complex. Its the measurement of how 'indepth' or 'advanced'(?) something is when it's doing it's job.
P-
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by PhlabibitHow can we measure something and say complexity has increased by
A paper clip is not functionally complex, it's bent metal for holding paper together.
A combustion engine is moreso, and a human brain is probably very functionally complex. Its the measurement of how 'indepth' or 'advanced'(?) something is when it's doing it's job.
P-
this value? I've used in the past checkers and chess to try and get
just complexity understood, the amount of variables involved
increases therefore is it more complex? Is a checker piece before it is
kinged, less complex than rook in chess because the rook has more
options, or is it simply one piece doing whatever it is it does,
compared to another piece doing whatever it is it does? It is difficult,
we cannot even seem to agree what information is.
To move on to functionally complex is a bicycle less complex than
say a motorcycle? Do we look at a single cell species and figure out
how many molecules are in it, than compare those numbers to a
human so we can compare “X” figure within a single cell to “Y” figure
within a human than say that now our complexity has increased by
whatever that figure is? The cell has this many molecules doing
whatever it is that they do that is required to make the cell live, and
the human has this many within it making the human body live. Can
we say that the complete DNA code required for a cell is “x” while the
complete DNA code for a human is “y” and judge complexity has
increased?
Could we also simply say that what is required for a human to digest
food is more complex that what a cell goes through? Simply again
because of the all the molecules at work within the single cell is
whatever that is, and all of those molecules making up the digestive
system within the human is whatever that is, if we were to say that
you were going to modify our single cell DNA to produce a human
instead, are we increasing something here? If so how do we measure
and do the math?
We have to keep in mind we are talking about something functionally
complex, there are things within a cell or human if we break it dies.
If we tinker with the code we can have choices but lose in the end
because death will follow. Keeping something functionally complex
and increase that (FC) to the point that new systems or organs are
created has yet to be demonstrated as far as I know. Frogs have not
grow wings so they still bump their butts when they land. (poor things)
Kelly
14 Jul 05
1 edit
I fully agree with you Kelly.
Another stain in the knickers of the evolutionists is DNA. This incredibly complex system is found from the most "simple" organisms to the most "complex". How do you explain that one?
The number of chromosomes vary immensely, e.g. a furn has 44, whereas the human which is supposed to be more "complex" only has 23.
Moreover, DNA is made up of many proteins, of which, more than 50 can only be made by a DNA regulated process.
Unfortunately the simplest single celled organism is many times more complex that our most advanced space-shuttle.
14 Jul 05
What you are forgetting is that it is not just the number of cells, but the amount of chromosomes within these cells, the amount of replications that occurred and the functionality that these cells have as part of a larger organism, th amount of energy required to run the system, the replication processes of a system and soooo much more. Complexity is not something you can judge by how many cells are contained within. A rock is not more complex than a pebble merely because it is larger. Just as the measure of a human's complexity is not just that it is bigger than an amoeba
14 Jul 05
Originally posted by StarrmanThanks for making my point. As the human is obviously very far down on the evolutionary chain as it has much fewer chromosomes than many other organisms. See above.
What you are forgetting is that it is not just the number of cells, but the amount of chromosomes within these cells, the amount of replications that occurred and the functionality that these cells have as part of a larger organism, th amount of energy required to run the system, the replication processes of a system and soooo much more. Complexity is not ...[text shortened]... rger. Just as the measure of a human's complexity is not just that it is bigger than an amoeba
14 Jul 05
Originally posted by HalitoseMy reply was to Kelly Jay, not you. You are also ignoring the fact that functional complexity is not based solely on the number of chromosomes present in a cell.
Thanks for making my point. As the human is obviously very far down on the evolutionary chain as it has much fewer chromosomes than many other organisms. See above.
14 Jul 05
Originally posted by StarrmanYou still can't explain how DNA came about by chance... This is the key of life, found in the simplest of living organisms, but Scientist are still baffled by how it functions. Yes we finally nailed its double-helix shape, but a teaspoon-load of DNA contains enough information to fill thousands of volumes. How can a simple organism such as an amoeba contain DNA which evinces such phenomenal complexity and design.
My reply was to Kelly Jay, not you. You are also ignoring the fact that functional complexity is not based solely on the number of chromosomes present in a cell.
DNA can only be produced with the help of at least 20 proteins, but these proteins can only be produced at the direction of DNA. (Correction on my statement in the previous post)
The only way this manufacturing process could have come about was if it all came into existance simultaniously.
14 Jul 05
1 edit
Originally posted by HalitoseYour post is totally irrelevant to this thread.
You still can't explain how DNA came about by chance... This is the key of life, found in the simplest of living organisms, but Scientist are still baffled by how it functions. Yes we finally nailed its double-helix shape, but a teaspoon- ...[text shortened]... have come about was if it all came into existance simultaniously.
By the way, how did you measure the information in a teaspoon of DNA and determine that it was equivalent to that of thousands of volumes?
14 Jul 05
Originally posted by HalitoseBaffled by DNA? I know plenty of scientists who know quite alot about how DNA functions. Why don't you go away and read something about it, you'll be surprised at what you might learn.
You still can't explain how DNA came about by chance... This is the key of life, found in the simplest of living organisms, but Scientist are still baffled by how it functions. Yes we finally nailed its double-helix shape, but a teaspoon-load of DNA contains enough information to fill thousands of volumes. How can a simple organism such as an amoeba contai ...[text shortened]... s manufacturing process could have come about was if it all came into existance simultaniously.
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15 Jul 05
Originally posted by aardvarkhomeI suppose you have an explanation for the formation of DNA by chance?
Baffled by DNA? I know plenty of scientists who know quite alot about how DNA functions. Why don't you go away and read something about it, you'll be surprised at what you might learn.
15 Jul 05
Originally posted by dj2beckeronce again you give your strawman definition and expect people to explain something that isn't correctly postulated by you.
I suppose you have an explanation for the formation of DNA by chance?
That hogwash might impress people in bible class, but the laws of chemistry are not dependent upon your pseudo-probility theory calculations.Quantum Mechanics isn't respectful of your notion of time which even if chemical reactions followed you pseudo-chemistry rules (which of course they don't) would still make your pseudo-theory completely invalid.
15 Jul 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerone tiny clue for you ".....all of us human beings and all the objects with which we deal are essentially bundles of simple quarks and electrons. If each of those particles had to be in its own independent state, we could not exist and neither could the other objects. It is the entanglement of the states of the particles that is responsible for matter as we know it."
I suppose you have an explanation for the formation of DNA by chance?
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15 Jul 05
2 edits
Originally posted by frogstompHmm. OK. Fine. So I suppose you have an explanation of how complex strands of DNA can be formed by chance if DNA can only be produced with the help of at least 20 proteins, but these proteins can only be produced at the direction of DNA?
one tiny clue for you ".....all of us human beings and all the objects with which we deal are essentially bundles of simple quarks and electrons. If each of those particles had to be in its own independent state, we could not exi ...[text shortened]... of the particles that is responsible for matter as we know it."
The only way this manufacturing process could have come about was if it all came into existance simultaniously.
PS: I know you are not a Biology teacher, but I'm sure you should be smart enough to figure out that you have a little problem here.