"Former Christians"

Originally posted by sonship
This exchange is about unbelievers who seem to pretend to be disciples of Jesus.

This is why I stick to my definition of Christians as those that wish to be labelled as such.
A disciple is someone who follows someone else. If you follow Jesus and his teachings, this does not require you to follow the teachings of other disciples or in this case disciples of Paul.
If someone says that they are a disciple of Jesus, it does not automatically follow that they:
1. Believe in the resurrection.
2. Believe in God.
3. Believe whatever you believe.

So I find your charge of 'pretending' to be unfounded, at least on the information you have provided. If anything, you say the poster has refused to discuss the topic, not that he has claimed to be of a given view that he does not in fact hold.

So, lets see if you too are a pretender. I have many times on this forum tried to initiate a discussion of the soul. No Christian (or theist for that matter), is willing to discuss it. So although you all profess a belief in the soul, are you all pretenders?

Originally posted by FMF

I received Him but then stopped believing and I do not claim to have received him anymore, although I was once convinced that I had. Now I don't believe there is any such thing as people 'receiving Him' except in their imagination. So I guess my experience disproves your claim that "there is no turning back".

factual fact: you've received physical life from God.
question: have you reached the point of ennui, angst, despair and well rehearsed frutration
within your unhappy life that you would now like to turn back
and return that life to its giver?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
factual fact: you've received physical life from God.
question: have you reached the point of ennui, angst, despair and well rehearsed frutration
within your unhappy life that you would now like to turn back
and return that life to its giver?

There is no "ennui, angst, despair, frustration or unhappiness" for me with regard to my spiritual path in life. It's interesting to see how often your comments on these issues rest squarely on these kinds of negative assumptions and assertions. You have my best wishes if this tendency of yours simply reflects struggles that you yourself have experienced. You also have my best wishes if your religious faith fends off ennui, angst, despair or frustration in your life. Each to their own, I say. My transformation from Christian to former Christian has not been an unhappy experience at all.

Originally posted by FMF
There is no "ennui, angst, despair, frustration or unhappiness" for me with regard to my spiritual path in life. It's interesting to see how often your comments on these issues rest squarely on these kinds of negative assumptions and assertions. You have my best wishes if this tendency of yours simply reflects struggles that you yourself have experienced. You also ...[text shortened]... . My transformation from Christian to former Christian has not been an unhappy experience at all.

"... would now like to turn back and return that life to its giver?"

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"... would now like to turn back and return that life to its giver?"

I do not subscribe to your beliefs or your perspectives about a "giver" and your stock in trade assumption about the "unhappy life" of those whose beliefs differ from yours, no matter how certain or well meaning you may or may not be, shows that you are barking up the wrong tree.

Originally posted by FMF
I do not subscribe to your beliefs or your perspectives about a "giver" and your stock in trade assumption about the "unhappy life" of those whose beliefs differ from yours, no matter how certain or well meaning you may or may not be, shows that you are barking up the wrong tree.

you live, do you wish to continue living by keeping the priceless gift given?

p.s. have you ever told a joke in public?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
you live, do you wish to continue living by keeping the priceless gift given?

I do not subscribe to your beliefs or your perspectives about how you - or anyone else - "continues living" after death or about a "priceless gift" either. You can use your off-pat 'which of the two eternal addresses do you choose' analogy [or variations thereof] as many times as you want. Your premise is rooted in me accepting that God has revealed Himself to you and that you are telling me or asking me stuff that is "true" or "real". I have no reason to believe He has, and I simply don't think that you are. You have it reduced to soundbites but I am familiar with the premise in its long form too, and I do not subscribe to it.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
p.s. have you ever told a joke in public?

If you're eyeing up the last fortune cookie on the plate, don't mind me. You go ahead, go for it. I've had my fill of them. 🙂

Originally posted by FMF
I do not subscribe to your beliefs or your perspectives about how you - or anyone else - "continues living" after death or about a "priceless gift" either. You can use your off-pat 'which of the two eternal addresses do you choose' analogy [or variations thereof] as many times as you want. Your premise is rooted in me accepting that God has revealed Himself ...[text shortened]... es but I am familiar with the premise in its long form too, and I do not subscribe to it.

fact is you're alive. you may shorten that life but you can't return it to sender. as a believer in christ you received spiritual life: dichotomous [body and soul] became trichotomous [body, soul and human spirit] the instant you took that first breath [faith alone in christ alone], just as your first breath of air out from the womb imputed physical life to an embryo. you have neither the prerogative nor power to unsubscribe to either.

Originally posted by FMF
If you're eyeing up the last fortune cookie on the plate, don't mind me. You go ahead, go for it. I've had my fill of them. 🙂

you seem listless and glum, rather than animated
and high spirited as if your wattage has run low.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
fact is you're alive. you may shorten that life but you can't return it to sender. as a believer in christ you received spiritual life: dichotomous [body and soul] became trichotomous [body, soul and human spirit] the instant you took that first breath [faith alone in christ alone], just as your first breath of air out from the womb imputed physical life to an embryo. you have neither the prerogative nor power to unsubscribe to either.

As far as I am concerned, I have both the prerogative and the power to unsubscribe to the superstitions you happen to subscribe to, and to unsubscribe to those beliefs and significance that you happen to derive from and invest in certain religious literature. Indeed I have done so, and assertions by you to the contrary cannot alter the fact. I am no longer a Christian. If you feel you do not have the strength or choice to unsubscribe and become a former Christian yourself, then I hope the "certainty" that this creates in your mind brings you some comfort or meaning in life.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
you seem listless and glum, rather than animated
and high spirited as if your wattage has run low.

Not at all. It's just 4.30 am here and I am finishing some work for an 8 am deadline. I am just fending off your fridge magnets and soundbites as I go about it, multitasking stylee! 🙂

edit: Having said that, I'd better crack on with it. The sun rises in about 30 minutes and the kids will be down shortly thereafter. Thanks for the exchange. Neither of us have assailed the other with anything 'new', and - while I understand your need to proselytize - I have, as usual, [you will note] not been trying to divest you of any of your beliefs.

Originally posted by FMF
As far as I am concerned, I have both the prerogative and the power to unsubscribe to the superstitions you happen to subscribe to, and to unsubscribe to those beliefs and significance that you happen to derive from and invest in certain religious literature. Indeed I have done so, and assertions by you to the contrary cannot alter the fact. I am no longer a Christ ...[text shortened]... I hope the "certainty" that this creates in your mind brings you some comfort or meaning in life.

if you were 'once a christian', as you claim, i'll bet you a barley beer or glass of fine wedding wine
we'll have a good laugh together at the very nearest pub and chess club we can find in heaven.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
if you were 'once a christian', as you claim, i'll bet you a barley beer or glass of fine wedding wine
we'll have a good laugh together at the very nearest pub and chess club we can find in heaven.

No I don't think so. I am not a fan of your forum persona, Grampy Bobby. You come across too much like Cliff Claven. I would pass on the opportunity I reckon. 😀

This is why I stick to my definition of Christians as those that wish to be labelled as such.

Much of the world is a free world. And anyone who wishes may call themselves a Christian.

It as originally a derogatory term, something akin to "Moonie". Only over the ages has he prejorative intent of the label evolved to be (in some places) a label of honor to be desired.

I said "in some places."

A disciple is someone who follows someone else. If you follow Jesus and his teachings, this does not require you to follow the teachings of other disciples or in this case disciples of Paul.

It is required by Jesus whom you intend to follow, that you DO believes certain things concerning Him.

But it is largly a free world. I can say I follow Desmond Tutu but actually cherish the thoughts of P.W. Botha.

But I do not pounce on people who wish to call themselves "Christian" simply because, say, they admire "the golden rule." Personally I don't argue with them immediately about what they wish to be called.

I may ask them if they have met this Lord Jesus Christ.

If someone says that they are a disciple of Jesus, it does not automatically follow that they:
1. Believe in the resurrection.
2. Believe in God.
3. Believe whatever you believe.

That could be easy for you to say because you think its all huey to begin with. Right?

So I find your charge of 'pretending' to be unfounded, at least on the information you have provided. If anything, you say the poster has refused to discuss the topic, not that he has claimed to be of a given view that he does not in fact hold.

It is not unfounded. It does not have to be taken too far.

In other words, some people following Jesus, may simply be following according to the understanding that they have. I would not say they are "pretending."

In the early days of the church people did not ride along carelessly. Acts says that some people did not dare to join the disciples too casually. I favor the kind of Christian church life in which the line of demarcation is clear between the called out ones and those not wanting to respond to the call.

So, lets see if you too are a pretender. I have many times on this forum tried to initiate a discussion of the soul. No Christian (or theist for that matter), is willing to discuss it. So although you all profess a belief in the soul, are you all pretenders?

The soul is comprised of the mind, the emotion, and the will. Three component functions - mind, emotion, will comprise what the Bible refers to as the soul.

Christ Himself will examine me face to face one day. That is as real to me as eating a piece of toast. Then whether I pretend or not will be manifested.

You may think of me as a pretender now if you wish. That is a very small thing to me. When those flaming eyes of the Son of God turn their burning gaze on me, as will happen, now His evaluation does concern me a lot more.