13 May 10
Originally posted by Grampy BobbySo what's your point? Do you want the spirituality forum to be a place for christians to expound to us ignorant unbelievers on the nature of their particular theology while we sit around and learn it?
Agree. There are always alternatives... checkers, tiddlywinks, hopscotch, marbles
to name a few. It's all about self determination and uncoerced freedom of choice.
13 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatHell bells, no. Just let it remain the Plato's Cave sanctuary that it's always been.
So what's your point? Do you want the spirituality forum to be a place for christians to expound to us ignorant unbelievers on the nature of their particular theology while we sit around and learn it?
Realistic expectation might be recall of a candle glimmer or flashlight later on.
13 May 10
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyLet's hope not! Candles or flashlights would probably just make more and more complicated shadows!
Hell bells, no. Just let it remain the Plato's Cave sanctuary that it's always been.
Realistic expectation might be recall of a candle glimmer or flashlight later on.
13 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatOnly if you squat down rigidly in the same ole comfortable position... flatly refusing
Let's hope not! Candles or flashlights would probably just make more and more complicated shadows!
to stand erect and peer over the small wall to see who and what casts the shadows.
13 May 10
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyHow I would love to see what casts the shadow! You too, I bet. Unfortunately, we must make do with others telling us what casts the shadows.
Only if you squat down rigidly in the same ole comfortable position... flatly refusing
to stand erect and peer over the small wall to see who and what casts the shadows.
13 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatPlease do yourself two favors: 1) Google the comprehensive and interesting 'Plato's Cave' discourse
How I would love to see what casts the shadow! You too, I bet. Unfortunately, we must make do with others telling us what casts the shadows.
for the useful secular point of view; 2) At some point come to the realization that two factors cause
these shadows (counterfeit truth mixed with error/falsehood and our own personal negative volition).
13 May 10
Originally posted by LemonJelloEh? You still around? Have to say I'm impressed with my argument just by your presence. Thank you for the compliment.
Like I already hinted, you wouldn't ask such questions as the one in the OP if you just educated yourself a little on the subject of belief.
It wouldn't matter per se if, as matters of descriptive fact, God does exist and we also have immortal souls. What matters for belief building is what actually presents itself to me as evidence. So, you ...[text shortened]... to do with the notion of accepting or rejecting a free gift? Absolutely nothing, of course.
...if you just educated yourself a little on the subject of belief.
While I'm certain that with your clever word games and art of articulation you could finagle your way to declaring right 'wrong' and vice versa, I feel pretty confident that I understand the nature of belief. That is to say, I believe I understand what belief is, more or less exactly.
What matters for belief building is what actually presents itself to me as evidence.
Not exactly. Although your system sounds impressive, it isn't really all that valuable outside of the classroom or the vacuum... as I'm sure you've come to realize. It's like the brand new car that loses $10K just by buying it and driving it off the lot. It is--- by all known measures--- however, very shiny.
In fact, I only see what I take to be countervailing evidence on those matters.
I guess I must have missed them in my sloppiness to arrive at my conclusions over matters of faith. Could you trouble yourself to enlighten me, possibly?
What does any of this have to do with the notion of accepting or rejecting a free gift? Absolutely nothing, of course.
Now I'm really confused. If none of your voodoo works either for or against the offer, why even bring the magic up?
13 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHKnow what FreakyKBH you are a most pompous, patronising and unpleasant BORE and why you seem to have taken personal possession of this Spirituality forum escapes me since you do not debate, you do not engage in discussion, you just pontificate, preach, assert your own opinions and insult those who disagree with you. What is this - a mission to convert chess players? Try China - that should be big enough for your ambitions. Go and convert the Chinese away from Confucius and Mao.
Eh? You still around? Have to say I'm impressed with my argument just by your presence. Thank you for the compliment.
[b]...if you just educated yourself a little on the subject of belief.
While I'm certain that with your clever word games and art of articulation you could finagle your way to declaring right 'wrong' and vice versa, I feel pret ...[text shortened]... none of your voodoo works either for or against the offer, why even bring the magic up?[/b]
13 May 10
Originally posted by finneganYou almost sound, um, bitter. Just me?
Know what FreakyKBH you are a most pompous, patronising and unpleasant BORE and why you seem to have taken personal possession of this Spirituality forum escapes me since you do not debate, you do not engage in discussion, you just pontificate, preach, assert your own opinions and insult those who disagree with you. What is this - a mission to convert chess ...[text shortened]... should be big enough for your ambitions. Go and convert the Chinese away from Confucius and Mao.
13 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHTwo responses you made to me earlier seem at odds with your post here:
By and by, do you really think ANYONE is here, seeking conversion? Or, do you consider that most people are here just to argue their positions? Two guesses, but I'll offer a hint: it's the second one.
I think you're making more of the proposal than is on the table. Is it that difficult for you to accept the proposition of personality, of soul? If so, then your presence in a forum dedicated to the pursuit of spiritual matters is contradictory
and yet you persist in frequenting a forum which concedes the point by nature of its very existence. Curiously inconsistent of you.
13 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by AgergStupidly, when I came to the forum, I figured it would be replete with folks who concerned themselves about spiritual matters--- decidedly NOT those who debated if they even existed.
Two responses you made to me earlier seem at odds with your post here:
I think you're making more of the proposal than is on the table. Is it that difficult for you to accept the proposition of personality, of soul? [b]If so, then your presence in a forum dedicated to the pursuit of spiritual matters is contradictory
and yet you persist in frequen ...[text shortened]... m which concedes the point by nature of its very existence. Curiously inconsistent of you. [/b]
What I'd like to see in the forum over and against what it is are two diametrically opposed functions. We haven't even got to the dispensations, for goodness' sake, and I've been here for five years!
14 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWell this is not consistent at all. For example, I posted on the general Debates forum a post remarking about an English politician seeking election who had been involved in setting up evangelical Christian centres in the UK and specifically in trying to "cure" young people of their homosexual inclinations. You promptly posted that I was in the wrong forum and should transfer that to the Spirituality forum. Personally I saw my post as political rather than spiritual. You argued the opposite. From this I infer that you actively sought political debate about the role of religion within the Spirituality forum.
Stupidly, when I came to the forum, I figured it would be replete with folks who concerned themselves about spiritual matters--- decidedly NOT those who debated if they even existed.
What I'd like to see in the forum over and against what it is are two diametrically opposed functions. We haven't even got to the dispensations, for goodness' sake, and I've been here for five years!
Maybe you imagined that people who discuss "Spiritual" matters are all like you and your American evangelical friends, but this site has an international membership and outside of the US many people regard the American fascination with Revelations and the literal truth of the bible as totally alarming. Our perception ( I know many others with my concern) is that Americans have abandoned serious debate and live in enclosed communities with separate media to ensure you never hear an opposing opinion. Ever. That is dangerous for the World because you guys get to vote for your president and we have seen the likes of Sarah Palin getting serious air time and real votes. So yes, I am not alone in wanting to argue with you for reasons like that.
Of course, since you are active on this forum, I certainly expected you to enter into debate and welcome the opportunity to hear for myself how you argue your corner. I regret that I find your style maddening and it seems to me very much that you are preaching, not debating. I also hold to the other negative opinions already expressed. But then again - I am not afraid to argue my own corner as long as I get time out to play chess and live.
14 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHBy the way what the are the dispensations and will I regret asking?
Stupidly, when I came to the forum, I figured it would be replete with folks who concerned themselves about spiritual matters--- decidedly NOT those who debated if they even existed.
What I'd like to see in the forum over and against what it is are two diametrically opposed functions. We haven't even got to the dispensations, for goodness' sake, and I've been here for five years!
14 May 10
Originally posted by finneganMaybe you imagined that people who discuss "Spiritual" matters are all like you and your American evangelical friends, but this site has an international membership and outside of the US many people regard the American fascination with Revelations and the literal truth of the bible as totally alarming.
Well this is not consistent at all. For example, I posted on the general Debates forum a post remarking about an English politician seeking election who had been involved in setting up evangelical Christian centres in the UK and specifically in trying to "cure" young people of their homosexual inclinations. You promptly posted that I was in the wrong forum ...[text shortened]... n - I am not afraid to argue my own corner as long as I get time out to play chess and live.
And in what manner are we alike, exactly? Have you come across quite a few Christians like me, truly? Give it a rest. Your spiel is always the same, no matter who you come across. If they're Christian, they're trite, stupid, predictable and fanatical. Horse crap. If those are the attributes you wish to find, I submit you purchase a mirror and cease looking for it in others. Why go traveling when you can get the same results at home?
Your attitude toward any one who believes is reprehensible, in that you ALWAYS resort to insults and ridicule. Pound sand with your supposed desire to debate. The only debate is the timing of your lapse in to insult.
Our perception ( I know many others with my concern)
Oh, my! There's a group of you like-minded thinkers who disdain those who take the Bible as the word of God? Well, by gum, I'm convinced! I'll throw that worthless piece of pulp fiction out this very instant. Why didn't you guys say something sooner before I named all of my children after my biblical heroes? Do you think I can get away with "Voltaire" for a girl's name?
Americans have abandoned serious debate and live in enclosed communities with separate media to ensure you never hear an opposing opinion. Ever.
Where are you imagining these enclosures here in the States, exactly? Do they not get cable, or are 'they' only making Fox available? Where do you imagine a guy like me finds his information? How about NPR, Foreign Affairs, Wall Street Journal, CSM, Economist, various blogs... and the lowly Plain Dealer of Cleveland, OH. Hear any mention of the 700 Club in there?
... we have seen the likes of Sarah Palin getting serious air time and real votes. So yes, I am not alone in wanting to argue with you for reasons like that.
Her appeal is obviously lost on you. Even more than the 'We like Cougars' vote, she scores well with the folks who (naively) think that our nation was founded on the ideals of the everyman. Let's just call her Ralph Nader for the Conservative set, shall we?
I regret that I find your style maddening and it seems to me very much that you are preaching, not debating.
I've not preached yet, and I don't intend to start. What I do instead, however, is hold others to the same standards they hold Christianity, in addition to calling spades hoes... or vice versa, as the case may apply.