Originally posted by sonshipI Never said I believe God created a chaotic mess. I said God is indicating He has not finished with creating the earth in verse two of Genesis. He does not see it as good at that point, but He shifts to creating light and it is that light that God sees as good in verse four. It is not until the third day that He comes back to finish the earth by gathering all the waters, that covered (and perhaps helped cool the crust of) the earth, into one place that dry land appeared. In verse 10, God indicates the earth is finished and ready to be inhabited by seeing it as good.Most translations says the earth "was" and not "became" as your translation has it.
I am aware that most English translations do not say [b]"became."
Some translators do. And some have pointed out that the same word usage is used in Genesis 19:26 where the English usually reads "But his [Lot's] wife looked back from ng the light in the sky was diffuse and difficult to localize to the seer.
I am not using any ancient creation myths in my interpretation, I am simply stating what I see the text is saying. The text never says God made the earth good and after that is became a chaotic mess. At least, not in any text that I have seen. I think you would have to add to God's word to come up with that interpretation.
You seem to be too hungup on the word translated "BECAME" in that translation you are using. The sense of the text must be used when determining what English word to use in translating the Hebrew becasue the Hebrew is not as specific as the Greek.
From The Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, it is clear that the Greek word in that text is "was" because the Greek looks something like the English small letters "hv" or "nv" with marks over the "h" or "n" and that "hv" is always translated "was" for it is not possible to translate it "became". I have a book with The Septuagint in Greek and English. The English translation of Genesis 1:2 is as follows:
But the earth was unsightly and unfinished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.
02 May 13
Originally posted by RJHindsWow, look at you! A relic from before the age of Darwin who would gladly cast sinners to hell now reborn as the "Instructor"?
I Never said I believe God created a chaotic mess. I said God is indicating He has not finished with creating the earth in verse two of Genesis. He does not see it as good at that point, but He shifts to creating light and it is that light that God sees as good in verse four. It is not until the third day that He comes back to finish the earth by gathering ...[text shortened]... d darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.[/b]
02 May 13
Originally posted by sonshipSo 175 impact craters (more now) is justice? I still think someone would have noticed this happening and recorded it. Even more so if it is justice. Not much point being punished by the grumpy sky fairy if you don't know what for and don't know it happened.
Only some overgrown spoiled brat would consider justice a matter of grumpiness.
02 May 13
Originally posted by KeplerI believe the moon has many more impact craters than that and it is only a third the size of the Earth. Astronauts have reported that there is no man in the moon nor is there any life forms. Do you suggect that the man in the moon and all life forms that may have been on the moon were wiped out by impact craters?
So 175 impact craters (more now) is justice? I still think someone would have noticed this happening and recorded it. Even more so if it is justice. Not much point being punished by the grumpy sky fairy if you don't know what for and don't know it happened.
02 May 13
Originally posted by RJHindsNo, nor do I suggest that life on earth was wiped out by impact craters. Geologists know why there are fewer impact craters on the earth than on the moon but you wouldn't like the explanation.
I believe the moon has many more impact craters than that and it is only a third the size of the Earth. Astronauts have reported that there is no man in the moon nor is there any life forms. Do you suggect that the man in the moon and all life forms that may have been on the moon were wiped out by impact craters?
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02 May 13
Originally posted by KeplerWhere did I mention impact craters ?
So 175 impact craters (more now) is justice? I still think someone would have noticed this happening and recorded it. Even more so if it is justice. Not much point being punished by the grumpy sky fairy if you don't know what for and don't know it happened.
My comment to you was concerning justice and grumpiness without regard to how judgment may have been carried out.
I don't think your post that prompted my comment was specfically addressed. So my general reply was to your general criticism of divine "grumpiness."
But if meteors was a means God used to judge a pre-adamic world, many would not be needed. Correspondingly some scientists are considering ONE large size astronomical object crashing into the earth would be enough to cause an extinction event.
So thousands of meteors are not necessarily needed to do the job.
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02 May 13
4 edits
Kepler:
... grumpy sky fairy ...
If you are interested in fairy stories you have your own to explain.
You can explain how your "dirt fairy" of naturalistic evolution caused dirt to become smart enough to ask such questions about human existence.
You can spend time on your own fairy tale of rocks giving rise to self awareness and intelligence.
For me, I can sum up the consciousness and self awareness of human beings simply by refering to the Bible's revelation that God created man in His own image (Gen. 1:26,27).
How did your dirt fairy evolve material to be self aware, conscious, and contemplative of its place within the cosmos ?
02 May 13
Originally posted by KeplerWell, if geologists have it all figured out then there should be nothing for you to worry about.
No, nor do I suggest that life on earth was wiped out by impact craters. Geologists know why there are fewer impact craters on the earth than on the moon but you wouldn't like the explanation.
02 May 13
Originally posted by sonshipa) it's not my dirt fairy;
Kepler:
... grumpy sky fairy ...
If you are interested in fairy stories you have your own to explain.
You can explain how your "dirt fairy" of naturalistic evolution caused dirt to become smart enough to ask such questions about human existence.
You can spend time on your own fairy tale of rocks giving rise to self awareness and ...[text shortened]... olve material to be self aware, conscious, and contemplative of its place within the cosmos ?
b) it's not my theory of evolution;
c) I have no idea how, or even if, dirt can become self aware;
d) biology is not my field of expertise so I don't argue for or against evolution.
That being said, I look at a universe that spontaneously generates complexity from very simple ingredients. A galaxy is an enormously complex thing and yet all you need to make one is hydrogen, helium and gravity. So I can readily believe that life can arise spontaneously given the right conditions. No god required even if you want there to be.
If you want a dumbed down version of the complexity from simplicity thing I suggest Deep Simplicity by John Gribbin. It certainly makes more sense than the Big Book of Fairy Tales although I prefer Roger Lewin's more rigorous Complexity.
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02 May 13
4 edits
Originally posted by Kepler
[b]a) it's not my dirt fairy;
b) it's not my theory of evolution;
c) I have no idea how, or even if, dirt can become self aware;
b]
c) I have no idea how, or even if, dirt can become self aware;
d) biology is not my field of expertise so I don't argue for or against evolution.
That being said, I look at a universe that spontaneously generates complexity from very simple ingredients. A galaxy is an enormously complex thing and yet all you need to make one is hydrogen, helium and gravity. So I can readily believe that life can arise spontaneously given the right conditions. No god required even if you want there to be.
So how did hydrogen, helium and gravity eventually arise to be self aware, self conscious, and inquire of our reason for existing and place in the cosmos ?
You haven't done much but shift the problem from the soil to hydregen, helium and gravity.
As for life arising out of some luck spontaneously without outside intellgence, I think you are still in a fairy tale.
As you want to show contempt for our Creator God I can respond in turn by despising your fairy tale. That is your adult's fairy tale of life coming about spontaneously by a lucky accident in right conditions.
Microbiologist Michael Denton, though himself rejecting creationism, remarked -
"The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great it is impossible to accept such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable event. Such an occurence would be indistiguishable from a miracle."
[Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Bethesda, Md.: Adler & Adler, 1985, pg. 264 ]
So you have faith that hydrogen, helium, and gravity gave rise to life without know-how and intelligence from outside of the molecules and forces of nature.
You go ahead and believe that if you want to. I'll turn my faith in the unique Book like no other on the earth, the library of 66 books known as the Bible. God with His know-how and intelligence created the DNA molecule of life along with the whole universe.
This makes more sense than your lucky accident, known to have occured in only one place so far, the planet Earth.
Where's the other world for your probability sample size demonstrating life can spontaneously arise in the right conditions ?
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03 May 13
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHinds
I Never said I believe God created a chaotic mess. I said God is indicating He has not finished with creating the earth in verse two of Genesis. He does not see it as good at that point, but He shifts to creating light and it is that light that God sees as good in verse four. It is not until the third day that He comes back to finish the earth by gathering d darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.[/b]
I Never said I believe God created a chaotic mess.
We've been through much of this before.
Verse 2 uses a pair of words together which typically discribe the condition of something overthrown in divine judgment. As the footnote to J.B. Rotheram's Emphasized Bible indicates:
Heb.; tohu wa-vohu. Evidently an idiomatic phrase, with a play on the sound ("assonance" ) . The two words occur together only in Is. xxxiv.11; Jer. iv.23; examples which favour the conclusion that here also they describe the result of previous overthrow. Tohu by itself is found in several other texts ...
Donald Barnhouse adds that to get the sense of the play on words that tohu wa-bohu makes in Hebrew we might thing of such expressions as:
helter skelter
topsy turvy
The two words (not occuring seperately each) but put together are used to discribe the overthrow of something in a calamitous judgment.
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible gives us Genesis 1:2 in English translation as:
"Now the earth had become waste and wild, and darkness was on the face of the roaring deep, - but the Spirit of God was brooding upon the face of the waters."
A previous divine overthrow of a previous world is strongly suggested there. It is not the Spirit's purpose at that point in the text to elaborate.
Just as it was not any elaboration on why a lying serpent, more subtle than other creatures, should be in the paradise garden of God to begin with. Some pieces of the puzzle of the ancient past are simply left to be filled in more latter in the Bible's revelation.
But two facts we do have in early Genesis:
1.) The seer first observes the earth in a state suggesting a divine overthrow by the indicative expression for such.
2.) Someone opposed to God, a lying being, apparently familiar with God's ways is somehow in the paradise of Eden. His purpose to slander God and derail His intentions with the newly created human beings.
I said God is indicating He has not finished with creating the earth in verse two of Genesis.
I understand. But the whole picture from a YEC standpoint is that the first step was to create the earth tohu wa-bohu.
Jesus said that out of the heart of a good man something good comes forth.
"The good man, out of the good treasure of his heart, brings forth that which is good, and the evil man, out of the evil treasure in his heart, brings forth that which is evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." (Luke 6:45)
Why should we not believe that God did not initially speak forth a creation tohu va-bohu (waste and empty) but something immediately appropriate for His purpose ?
We know that the Anointed Cherub was created perfect in the day God created him. "You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." (Ezek. 28:15)
Why not "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" also mean that no restoration, no recovery, no repair or renovation was initially needed in what came from God's mouth ?
James also says - "Does a spring, out of the same opening, gush forth the sweet and the bitter?" (James 3:11)
The condition of the earth as waste and empty indeed is not fit for habitation yet. But this condition indicates a judgmental overthrow after He had created heaven and earth in the beginning.
He does not see it as good at that point, but He shifts to creating light and it is that light that God sees as good in verse four.
I indicated that the Hebrew for "created" is not used for Light in either verse 3 - "Let there be light ..." or in verse 16 - "And God made two great light bearers, the greater light bearer to rule the day and the lesser light bearer to rule the night, and the stars."
It is possible that God rebuking the obscuring darkness and saying "Let there be light" is also GOOD in His eyes after the earth had lain in watery darkness for a long time.
Why is it not possible for God to REPAIR and RESTORE that which has been overthrown with the pronouncement that such is GOOD in His eyes also?
"And God saw that the light was good" (v. 4) can be interpreted to mean that God first created light at that time. But it does not HAVE to be interpreted that way. And opposing darkness being restricted such that light previously created, shines through, ALSO could be the cause of God seing the light and procouncing that it is good.
It is not until the third day that He comes back to finish the earth by gathering all the waters, that covered (and perhaps helped cool the crust of) the earth, into one place that dry land appeared. In verse 10, God indicates the earth is finished and ready to be inhabited by seeing it as good.
I agree that a finishing of things was in order. But this was not all initial creation. It was some creating of something new yet a recovery and restoral of that which had become waste and empty through previous judgment.
The word for created is used concerning the heavens and the earth in the beginning (v.1), and the sea creatures (v.21), and man (v.27).
So I read restoration and further creation. I do not read all total new creation.
I have pointed out that the pronouncement of "and it was good" is absent on the second day concerning the airy firmament. This pronouncement of God seeing that something was good is withheld in on this day concerning the atmosphere surrounding the earth.
This fact and that fact that a lying creature slandering God appeared in the garden suggest something not too good was left over from a previous time. That is the evil spirits in the air with their master Satan in the form of a serpent on the earth.
You may counter that God said all things were good in verse 31 -
"And God saw everything that He had made, and indeed, it was very good." (v.31)
I would say that this does not necessarily mean that an opposing serpentine slanderer out to deceive man was "very good". What was very good though that such a being was made to be under Adam's authority. For Adam had been given deputy authority over every creeping thing along with all the other living beings. That Adam was in charge of it all - that was "very good" cocerning "everything that He [God] had made" .
The new adminstration of Adam as the head of creation was very good. That is until he relinquished his priviledged position by listening to the lies of the Devil rather than the command of the Creator.
I'll perhaps have to continue latter.
03 May 13
So god created Adam and that dirty ol' devil knowing that the ensuing interaction between the two would damn all of mankind for millenia. And he knew this for an eternity before he created them. And with malice aforethought, coldly and deliberately did he act. Sounds evil, doesn't it ??
I am sure The Flying Spaghetti Monster will arrive soon and set things right.
🙄🙄🙄🙄
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03 May 13
1 edit
Originally posted by caissad4
So god created Adam and that dirty ol' devil knowing that the ensuing interaction between the two would damn all of mankind for millenia. And he knew this for an eternity before he created them. And with malice aforethought, coldly and deliberately did he act. Sounds evil, doesn't it ??
I am sure The Flying Spaghetti Monster will arrive soon and set things right.
🙄🙄🙄🙄
And he knew this for an eternity before he created them. And with malice aforethought, coldly and deliberately did he act. Sounds evil, doesn't it ??
I am sure The Flying Spaghetti Monster will arrive soon and set things right.
When you read of Christ, say in John or Luke so loving the sinner that He bears the judgment of God upon Himself that you might be saved, when you read of His absolute love to go to that length that you may be saved, you say in yourself -
"Sounds evil"
Maybe you should consider your own ungrateful heart. I mean this is God become a Man going to the uttermost for your saving.
And you see the lengths to which God as a man went in His suffering love to save you, and you mutter - "Sounds evil" ?
Whatever the first man Adam failed the last Adam undoes and succeeds.
So the same principle that worked against us decendants of the first man, God causes to work FOR us in the last Adam, the second man Jesus Christ.
Maybe the sin you love so much that you consider it evil that God would not simply leave you to enjoy the fall into it from Adam's failure.
Some of us see "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son ..." where you scowl "Sounds evil".