don't blame us , blame Jesus!

Originally posted by Rajk999
Where ? Kindly provide a reference please.

The Bible clearly states that it is faith that saves (PAUL) but also offers the qualifying statement that it is only a living faith that saves. (JAMES)

You CAN find statements in the Bible that declare we can be saved by faith , but you CANNOT find statements that say we are saved by works. This fact alone should make you curious.



James 2:14-18
New International Version (NIV)
Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Ephesians 2:8-9
New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The Bible clearly states that it is faith that saves (PAUL) but also offers the qualifying statement that it is only a living faith that saves. (JAMES)

You CAN find statements in the Bible that declare we can be saved by faith , but you CANNOT find statements that say we are saved by works. This fact alone should make you curious.



James 2:14 ...[text shortened]... nd this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

First, you answered a different question. You said that ".... the Bible .. talks about works as evidence of saving faith , .. You said James said that, but you provided no reference. James said no such thing.

Second, there are dozens of times Christ said good works are essential.. ESSENTIAL. Not optional. Not if you feel like it. Here are some of the Words of Christ :

1. The Good Samaritan -- WORKS -- The good samaritan gets eternal life and the priest and Levite who looks the other way gets damnation. The good samaritan story was in response to the question . "what do I need to DO to get salvation". Christ said love you neighbour as yourself. Then the question .."Who is my neighbour" .. Christ related the story of the good samaritan.

2. Rich Man and Lazarus - Example of a Greedy Selfish Bastard who refused to help the poor. He had no works - he gets damnation.

3. In case there was any doubt about the importance of good works Christ laid it out in great detail in Matt 25:31 .. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

WORKS AGAIN - when you see people in need .. thats Christ in need. You go help Christ .. WORKS !

4. Mark 10:17-21 .. Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

AGAIN - GIVE TO THE POOR - WORKS. Do good works and you get eternal life. Christ stressed BOTH FAITH and WORKS. Both are necessary requirements of eternal life.

Clearly you are not a Christian and a follower of Christ. I think Christ has a word he used for people like you .. HYPOCRITE. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Clearly you [and others of your type - Kelly Jay, Suzainne, Jaywill] need to call yourself something other than 'Christian". You hypocritically call on Christ name and claim you love Christ and love God and deny his words and his commandments.. HYPOCRITE !

Originally posted by Rajk999
Do you have a Bible reference for this statement?

So you have made a free will choice to remain ignorant, bound to the letter of the Book, and not its intent. You see, yet you do not understand, because you choose not to. Fantastic, how lovely for you. People like you are the ones voting for Rick Santorum. And yet, no one will be more surprised than you when Jesus says to you, "Depart from me, I never knew you."


We're done here.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You missed the point. The question assumes that someone has already got to the point where they feel that God exists but they want to try and figure out which religion to follow.

Imagine you are at a party and 3 guests turn up all purporting to be "Jeff". You feel certain that Jeff exists as a person and that He is at the party. Then the Jeffs s ...[text shortened]... easonable argument. I don't base my "frequency tuning " just on this one position.

I think the solution here is obvious.

Go ask Jeff's mom.

Originally posted by Suzianne
So you have made a free will choice to remain ignorant, bound to the letter of the Book, and not its intent. You see, yet you do not understand, because you choose not to. Fantastic, how lovely for you. People like you are the ones voting for Rick Santorum. And yet, no one will be more surprised than you when Jesus says to you, "Depart from me, I never knew you."


We're done here.

Obviously you have no references for this statement ..
.. Christ is all about one's personal relationship with Him.

Thanks for your opinions, your personal biased interpretations, your impressions, your false doctrines, but you can keep them. Im only interested in the doctrines of Christ and the Apostles.

Rick who? Who the hell is that? Anyway forget it .. not interested.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I asked a question. I made no statement.
You have constantly implied that good works are of no value.
Christ said the complete opposite.
You cannot have a 'relationship with Christ' or like in your case 'boast of a relationship with Christ' with one mouth and then with the other you deny Christs teachings and commandments. You are a hypocrite like many of the so-called Christians out there.

So you don't mind lying, you do not want a relationship with Jesus Christ,
and your version of Christianity is work for it, it needs to be earned, it isn't
a free gift of God. That is my take on you and what your doing here.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
So you don't mind lying, you do not want a relationship with Jesus Christ,
and your version of Christianity is work for it, it needs to be earned, it isn't
a free gift of God. That is my take on you and what your doing here.
Kelly

My 'version' of Christianity is to follow the commandments of Christ.
There is nothing in the Bible called a "relationship with Jesus Christ".

Originally posted by Rajk999
First, you answered a different question. You said that ".... the Bible .. talks about works as evidence of saving faith , .. You said James said that, but you provided no reference. James said no such thing.

Second, there are dozens of times Christ said good works are essential.. ESSENTIAL. Not optional. Not if you feel like it. Here are some of ...[text shortened]... claim you love Christ and love God and deny his words and his commandments.. HYPOCRITE !

It's sad that you feel you need to judge others like this. Christ rebuked the Pharisees for judging other people. He also commanded that we should take the plank out of our own eye so we will be able to see to take the speck out of our brother's eye. These are also the commandments and teachings of Jesus.

Now , I sincerely hope that we will meet one day in glory and all this won't mean anything because there will be no point scoring or judging - only love. I refuse to pass judgement on you - the reason? - because I can't , I'm not qualified , I don't have enough information and I don't have the right to either.

Unless you can respond more calmly and less critically to the perfectly valid and reasonable points that are being made to you (even though you disagree) then you will make it impossible for people to debate with you.

I think the problem here is that you don't seem to understand that scripture needs to be viewed in it's entirety with one passage being weighed against another.

Anyway , what exactly do you think the Holy Spirit is and what is he for?

Originally posted by knightmeister
It's sad that you feel you need to judge others like this. Christ rebuked the Pharisees for judging other people. He also commanded that we should take the plank out of our own eye so we will be able to see to take the speck out of our brother's eye. These are also the commandments and teachings of Jesus.

Now , I sincerely hope that we will mee ...[text shortened]... another.

Anyway , what exactly do you think the Holy Spirit is and what is he for?

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
(2 John 1:9-11)

You do not have the doctrine of Christ in you. You are teaching false doctrines which are totally contrary to all that Christ taught.

You did not even know that Christ said so often that you MUST do good works otherwise you get NO eternal life. And clearly all the references which I posted had no effect.

I am not of the same type of Christianity like you and since I have failed to show you the correct doctrine which Christ preached then I must end my conversation with you. Good luck.

Originally posted by Rajk999
[i]Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
(2 John 1:9 ...[text shortened]... the correct doctrine which Christ preached then I must end my conversation with you. Good luck.

I am not of the same type of Christianity like you

----------rajk---------------

Agreed

It's shame that you have made the assumption that I do not value good works. You don't know anything about what I do or don't do and yet you choose to ASSUME judgmentally that I do not do good works or don't value them.

I actually think they are very important. But to me they are an expression of faith , love and salvation.


God is love. You don't sound like you have a lot of love in you but my hope is that you do your good works with a heart of love. If you do them to earn a place in heaven then I'm afraid that's not the right motivation.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I am not of the same type of Christianity like you

----------rajk---------------

Agreed

It's shame that you have made the assumption that I do not value good works. You don't know anything about what I do or don't do and yet you choose to ASSUME judgmentally that I do not do good works or don't value them.

I actually think they are very i If you do them to earn a place in heaven then I'm afraid that's not the right motivation.

Some one said "If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

This I have found the problem with any fellowship with Rajk999. His vision is rather myopic. He has a tunnel vision of only being able to concentrate on one issue - good works done by Christians.

I have tried to discuss that particular issue with him, its importance and proper context in the New Testament. But he seems not to have the capacity to receive a well rounded and balanced treatment of that important subject. It is always the defense against the assurance of salvation.

"Judgment BEGINS ... at the house of God"

But Rajk999 can not divorce the subject from justification through works of the law.

Originally posted by jaywill
Some one said "If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

This I have found the problem with any fellowship with Rajk999. His vision is rather myopic. He has a tunnel vision of only being able to concentrate on one issue - good works done by Christians.

I have tried to discuss that particular issue with him, its import ...[text shortened]...

But Rajk999 can not divorce the subject from justification through works of the law.

Thanks .. my tunnel vision has resulted from focusing on the teachings of Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
My 'version' of Christianity is to follow the commandments of Christ.
There is nothing in the Bible called a "relationship with Jesus Christ".

so naturally, you also reject the trinity doctrine?

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
so naturally, you also reject the trinity doctrine?

Naturally.
I reject anything thats not clearly stated by Christ.
I accept everything thats clearly stated by Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Naturally.
I reject anything thats not clearly stated by Christ.
I accept everything thats clearly stated by Christ.

But Christ talked about the Holy Spirit many times. Do you just ignore those bits?