don't blame us , blame Jesus!

Originally posted by KellyJay
"The Divine Conspiracy" is a book of his I think you would enjoy.
I read Mere Christianity in one sitting, this book I would read a few pages stop
think about it, and read a few more. I enjoyed it, hopefully you will too if you
run across it.
Kelly

Great, thanks for reference KJ.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Great, thanks for reference KJ.

Since you were big enough to point to a Christian apologist who you seem to regard as having something worthy to say, I would like to respond in kind.

I think Dr. Shelly Kagan (spelling?) was pretty good in his debate with Craig. I'd say he kept me listening to him maybe more than Craig did, in this particular debate.

"Is God Necessary for Morality?"

YouTube

Originally posted by jaywill
Since you were big enough to point to a Christian apologist who you seem to regard as having something worthy to say, I would like to respond in kind.

I think Dr. Shelly Kagan (spelling?) was pretty good in his debate with Craig. I'd say he kept me listening to him maybe more than Craig did, in this particular debate.

[b]"Is God Necessary for Morality?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l69QN7ixmM[/b]

Interesting discussion, I tried watching it but they broke it up and didn't allow
for a easy way to follow the discussion so I only watched some of it.
Kelly

Originally posted by knightmeister
Christians often get stick for being arrogant or being bold about the truth or claiming exclusivity for the truth etc etc

However , if you consider the person of Jesus what He said and who He claimed to be we are actually left with little choice. He said He was THE truth , THE life and THE way. He claimed an exclusive position , as the ONLY one who said , then you will know why we make these claims.

And if you like - Take it up with Him.

What I have also noticed is that many regular Joe christians who know nothing of apologetics or of competing thinking outside of fundamentalist christianity, are confused that they are perceived as arrogant. After all, from their perspective, they are doing good in witnessing, and especially in cases with family members and close friends, they are truthfully fearful that you are going to hell and feel compelled to try to save you. This is especially true with christians who have grown up brainswashed since infancy. In contrast, recent converts to the fundamentalist christian superstition tend to more recognize why they are perceived arrogant. For some, they remember when they thought the same in perceiving arrogance in know-it-all fundamentalist christians.

Originally posted by moon1969
What I have also noticed is that many regular Joe christians who know nothing of apologetics or of competing thinking outside of fundamentalist christianity, are confused that they are perceived as arrogant. After all, from their perspective, they are doing good in witnessing, and especially in cases with family members and close friends, they are truthful ...[text shortened]... ber when they thought the same in perceiving arrogance in know-it-all fundamentalist christians.

Please how many know it all's are on this chess site Christain and otherwise?
I admit many people don't have a clue about witnessing, but that is because
people are well people! God works through us in our weaknesses which is a
good thing since we have more of those types of things than we do strenghts.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not sure what you want here. I believe (faith) in God; however, at this time
God for His reasons chooses to not make Himself as fully known as He can be,
but does not hide His Himself completely from us. So God is real, it can go
beyond faith when He chooses, in the mean time evidence for Him is
everywhere in His creation to the point that scripturually it is said that no one
will have an excuse for missing Him due to the creation.

Funny how in one post and are doing exactly what I said some theists do. Switching between "faith is necessary" and "evidence exists" and "only some can see the evidence". You manage to go with all three at the same time! Simply amazing.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Funny how in one post and are doing exactly what I said some theists do. Switching between "faith is necessary" and "evidence exists" and "only some can see the evidence". You manage to go with all three at the same time! Simply amazing.

Faith today is necessary because God has choosen to not reveal Himself to us
beyond it at this time. The thing about how this all plays out is only someone
who is honestly seeking will find, while self justification, just playing, and so on
will be left wanting. Evidence does exist, but that does not stop you or anyone
else from hiding from God by saying, "NOPE don't see it!", even if it is right in
front of your face. Faith allows for this, there will always be a reason to stay
or go so Truth, Love, and the Way will keep an honest seeker no matter what
everyone else will find some excuse along the way to bail.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Please how many know it all's are on this chess site Christain and otherwise?
I admit many people don't have a clue about witnessing, but that is because
people are well people! God works through us in our weaknesses which is a
good thing since we have more of those types of things than we do strenghts.
Kelly

I grew up fundamentalist southern baptist and my Mom is terrified that my kids will go to hell if they don't get dunked under water in a baptism.

And even though I am now a non-believer, she is at least somewhat comfortable with my situation because I was dunked under water when I was age 13. Once saved, always saved. I may be a backslider but I am going to heaven when I die.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Faith today is necessary because God has choosen to not reveal Himself to us
beyond it at this time.

Yet a moment ago, you said there was evidence. I am just saying that you make 3 mutually exclusive claims and then play each one in opposition to anything someone says.
I say, there is no evidence for God, you then reply with: there is plenty of evidence.
I say, show me the evidence for God, you reply with: faith is required.
I say, how do you know God exists, you say: evidence is there but only those privileged to see it can see it.

But back to the original question: if I presented solid evidence that Jesus was raised from the dead, would you accept it, or would it leave no room for faith (and thus be rejected)?

Originally posted by moon1969
I grew up fundamentalist southern baptist and my Mom is terrified that my kids will go to hell if they don't get dunked under water in a baptism.

And even though I am now a non-believer, she is at least somewhat comfortable with my situation because I was dunked under water when I was age 13. Once saved, always saved. I may be a backslider but I am going to heaven when I die.

What are you relying on your going to heaven, your mom's beliefs?
So when your standing before Jesus Christ next to all of those who lived their
lives with him, your going to say, my mom said?
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yet a moment ago, you said there was evidence. I am just saying that you make 3 mutually exclusive claims and then play each one in opposition to anything someone says.
I say, there is no evidence for God, you then reply with: there is plenty of evidence.
I say, show me the evidence for God, you reply with: faith is required.
I say, how do you know God ...[text shortened]... from the dead, would you accept it, or would it leave no room for faith (and thus be rejected)?

Yes, evidence all around you, the universe itself is evidence.
Can I claim proof due to it, no.
God showing Himself could do that not me saying so.

Show me what you got on solid evidence and we will talk.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Show me what you got on solid evidence and we will talk.

Typical question avoidance. Knightmeister, can I blame Jesus for this kind of behaviour?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Typical question avoidance. Knightmeister, can I blame Jesus for this kind of behaviour?

"But back to the original question: if I presented solid evidence that Jesus was raised from the dead, would you accept it, or would it leave no room for faith (and thus be rejected)?"

I said show it to me and we'd discuss it, because right now faith is the bottom
line. You want (proof) or solid evidence I've told you that you are not going to
get that, there will always be room for doubt. If you want to display the error
in that, provide your solid evidence, if not you are just making up as you go,
again.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
How do you know they did go through the process as I described it? Many
people are busy making up their own ways to God, getting good enough while
God has reached down to man through Jesus Christ. If you want God you do
it on God's terms not man's. Man can do whatever man wants, he can do
whatever seems good to him, or just good enough, as far as man's good is
concern in his own eyes.
Kelly

How do you know they did go through the process as I described it?

This was you're quote -

Those that seek God find Him if they do it with their whole hearts

Are you seriously suggesting that devout Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims for example don't seek the God of their religion with a 'whole heart'?

Originally posted by KellyJay
You want (proof) or solid evidence I've told you that you are not going to
get that,

So you must agree with my original point, ie that if I were to provide what I believe to be good evidence, you would deny that it is evidence because you believe that no such evidence can be provided.

So my point was that it is therefore futile for a theist to point us to videos that supposedly provide evidence when he himself believes no such evidence exists or to be more accurate that no such evidence will be convincing evidence or 'solid evidence'. He knows that faith is a requirement.