don't blame us , blame Jesus!

Originally posted by KellyJay
I would say if you want to say your forth choice is any different than the
fraud one I'd say you are splitting hairs looking for a difference without a
distinction. Missing out on the Son of God will be due to those choices you
make them.
Kelly

It's not a difference without a distinction. One claim is that Jesus lied. The other claim is that Jesus' followers lied about what he said. If the latter claim is true, then it's likely that Jesus never claimed to be a Deity and there is no Son of God to accept or reject.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
It's not a difference without a distinction. One claim is that Jesus lied. The other claim is that Jesus' followers lied about what he said. If the latter claim is true, then it's likely that Jesus never claimed to be a Deity and there is no Son of God to accept or reject.

He is either false or not.
Kelly

Originally posted by knightmeister
If you really want to know I can maybe help you with this. However , I fear you may be asking a rhetorical question rather than a serious inquiry.

Okay, we'll try this angle.

How would someone go about sensing God?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Okay, we'll try this angle.

How would someone go about sensing God?

I would say that there would be a few things needed

1) Someone would need to actually want to know God and be prepared to do something about it if God did reveal Himself. Attitude of heart is important.

2) Be prepared to be still and quiet one's mind. Sensing God means tuning out everything else.

3) Have enough genuine faith (even though it may be small) to actually ask God to be present. This would require and open mind and a willingness to try something new.

4) Have some patience and be prepared to accept that it will happen in God's time scale not yours.

5) Be honest to God (in the best way one can) about the things that are not right in one's life. Unconfessed sin will block God from us because the whole idea is to be sensitive to his Holy Spirit. Even Christians lose their sensitivity to the Spirit if their hearts are blocked with sin.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I could talk about evidence and I could explain reasons , but since you have a preset parameter for what qualifies as "evidence" then I would always be on a loser.

Yes, you would always loose, because you admit it yourself. You even started a thread in which you admitted deluding yourself and taking a pill. You tried hard to back down and break it into multiple pills, but it is nevertheless clear that you took the pill.

But the key point is, that I have as much conviction (if not more) that God does not exist, as you have that he does. Yet you arrogantly presume that you are right and I am wrong, and the Muslim with conviction is wrong too. None of this can be blamed on Jesus.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes, you would always loose, because you admit it yourself. You even started a thread in which you admitted deluding yourself and taking a pill. You tried hard to back down and break it into multiple pills, but it is nevertheless clear that you took the pill.

But the key point is, that I have as much conviction (if not more) that God does not exist, as ...[text shortened]... nd I am wrong, and the Muslim with conviction is wrong too. None of this can be blamed on Jesus.

This is so disingenuous whitey. You and I both know that I did not admit to deluding myself. We both know that my use of the term "delusion" was metaphorical and playful.

You say that I am arrogant because I presume that I am right and you are wrong. But be honest with yourself , do you not also equally presume that you are right and I am wrong? You even say yourself that you have as much if not more conviction that God does not exist - therefore you presume to know that I am wrong. Yes?

I have no problem with this - it is to be expected. I just wonder why you think I am arrogant and you are not - it does make sense. You are not being consistent.

Your position is basically that you feel you know God does not exist and if I could only see it the way you do then I would feel the same. My position is the reverse of this. So why am I arrogant and you not?

Please explain.......

Originally posted by knightmeister
This is so disingenuous whitey. You and I both know that I did not admit to deluding myself. We both know that my use of the term "delusion" was metaphorical and playful.

You say that I am arrogant because I presume that I am right and you are wrong. But be honest with yourself , do you not also equally presume that you are right and I am wrong? Y ...[text shortened]... y position is the reverse of this. So why am I arrogant and you not?

Please explain.......

Your position is not the reverse though Knightmeister.

We atheists usually hold the conviction that it is not the case your "God" or anyone else's deity exists. You on the other hand hold the conviction that precisely one deity does exist (the one you name as "God" ). Structurally, these two positions are not the negation of each other.


Now if you were saying you believe that at least one unspecified god does exist then you could rightly claim to hold a view that is the reverse of ours. Unfortunately for you this is not the case though.

Originally posted by knightmeister
This is so disingenuous whitey. You and I both know that I did not admit to deluding myself. We both know that my use of the term "delusion" was metaphorical and playful.

Call it what you will, it is delusion from where I sit.

You say that I am arrogant because I presume that I am right and you are wrong. But be honest with yourself , do you not also equally presume that you are right and I am wrong?
Yes I do. And I am equally arrogant about my stance. The only difference is I don't try to pass it off to some third party.

You are not being consistent.
I never claimed not to be arrogant. However, I generally do not expect other people to believe me without a convincing argument or evidence.

Also, I don't feel the need to lie, deceive, talk nonsense, etc to support my stance. Yet most theists seem to (I admit that not all of them do).

Originally posted by Agerg
Your position is not the reverse though Knightmeister.

We atheists usually hold the conviction that it is not the case your "God" or anyone else's deity exists. You on the other hand hold the conviction that [b]precisely one deity does exist (the one you name as "God" ). Structurally, these two positions are not the negation of each other.


Now if y ...[text shortened]... hold a view that is the reverse of ours. Unfortunately for you this is not the case though.[/b]

However Atheism in my experience does involve subscribing to a particular way of looking at the world. So although I accept that there are variations , many many Atheists seem to have a reductionist and non-spiritual world view and share many similar fundamental ideas about human nature.

Both Theists and Atheists are making fundamental statements about the nature of reality and human beings.

For example , for the Theist , human life is sacred and important , for the Atheist human life is simply a by- product of random chance and no less important than anything else.

For the Theist , existence has an eternal aspect to it. For the Atheist eternity seems to be rejected. For the Theist consciousness is a central aspect to life and cannot be explained away . For the Atheist , consciousness is often seen as a mere by-product of brain processing.

Need I go on?

Originally posted by knightmeister
However Atheism in my experience does involve subscribing to a particular way of looking at the world. So although I accept that there are variations , many many Atheists seem to have a reductionist and non-spiritual world view and share many similar fundamental ideas about human nature.

Both Theists and Atheists are making fundamental statements a ...[text shortened]... theist , consciousness is often seen as a mere by-product of brain processing.

Need I go on?

For example , for the Theist , human life is sacred and important , for the Atheist human life is simply a by- product of random chance and no less important than anything else.
Nonsense, but whilst your playing the make up some ludicrous statement about atheists game - let me have a try too. Indeed I'll recast what I quoted you on:

For example , for the atheist , human life is sacred and important since it is the only shot at existing they believe they'll get, and they want to make the most of it, for the theist human life is simply a step they have to go through before an eternity of bliss. As such, their and others' lives here on earth are of neglible consequence to them.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
So many points to pick up on but we'll start with this one.

How do i go about 'sensing' God?

Those that seek God find Him if they do it with their whole hearts, those that
play games with God, only end up with the games they play. It is an honest
effort not a thought experiment that is required.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes, you would always loose, because you admit it yourself. You even started a thread in which you admitted deluding yourself and taking a pill. You tried hard to back down and break it into multiple pills, but it is nevertheless clear that you took the pill.

But the key point is, that I have as much conviction (if not more) that God does not exist, as ...[text shortened]... nd I am wrong, and the Muslim with conviction is wrong too. None of this can be blamed on Jesus.

"But the key point is, that I have as much conviction (if not more) that God does not exist, as you have that he does. "

So if God is true or not this is where you are.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
Call it what you will, it is delusion from where I sit.

[b]You say that I am arrogant because I presume that I am right and you are wrong. But be honest with yourself , do you not also equally presume that you are right and I am wrong?
Yes I do. And I am equally arrogant about my stance. The only difference is I don't try to pass it off to some t ...[text shortened]... onsense, etc to support my stance. Yet most theists seem to (I admit that not all of them do).[/b]

And I am equally arrogant about my stance.The only difference is I don't try to pass it off to some third party.

---------whitey-------------------------

So if you admit this what was the point of accusing me of arrogance in the first place?

Try this thought experiment. Imagine you had a spiritual revelation from God and came to faith in Jesus, received the Holy Spirit and had your eyes opened to the Truth.

What would you then do? Would you follow Jesus by hiding your light under a bushel? Would it be honest to pretend you don't know anything worth knowing? That would be false humility , which is the most insidious form of arrogance.

You see as a Christian I am very aware that people will at times take aversion to what I am saying. Jesus did say that we will be hated because of Him.

Maybe the problem is that we both define arrogance differently?

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.” -----------Marianne Williamson

Originally posted by knightmeister
I would say that there would be a few things needed

1) Someone would need to actually want to know God and be prepared to do something about it if God did reveal Himself. Attitude of heart is important.

2) Be prepared to be still and quiet one's mind. Sensing God means tuning out everything else.

3) Have enough genuine faith (even though it t. Even Christians lose their sensitivity to the Spirit if their hearts are blocked with sin.

This shows why you suck at witnessing so much.

Let's go through this yet again for good measure:

Your 1) is just procedurally wrong. It's strange that you think it is indicative of the right "attitude of heart" for approaching some inquiry, because the opposite is actually the case. If a person approaches some inquiry honestly and with intellectual integrity (here, the inquiry is the question of whether or not God exists), then he will not be so psychologically wed to any one particular possible outcome. He should actually want to know the truth of the matter whatever it may be, not actually want to know that the outcome will be affirmative. Do you not understand why wishful thinking is an unreliable method for belief-building?

Your 3) is simply question-begging. One cannot genuinely approach the question of whether or not God exists by asking God to present evidence for His own existence. One may not simply assume the truth of exactly what is supposed to be under consideration to begin with. This is really one of those "Duh!" types of things, but for whatever reason, you just do not get it despite having been told this many, many times.

Your 4) is question-begging as well.

Your 5) is question-begging as well.

You're so very, very confused on what should count as good witnessing. You do major disservice to those who actually take rational defense of their Christianity seriously. So sorry to have to keep telling you that.

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]For example , for the Theist , human life is sacred and important , for the Atheist human life is simply a by- product of random chance and no less important than anything else.
Nonsense, but whilst your playing the make up some ludicrous statement about atheists game - let me have a try too. Indeed I'll recast what I quoted you on:

For example ...[text shortened]... liss. As such, their and others' lives here on earth are of neglible consequence to them.[/b]

Let's keep this simple.

Do you deny that your world view has radically different philosophical assumptions and implications about life than mine? (ie we have two different world views)

Do you deny that you also (like me) feel that you "know" or feel extremely convinced that I am mistaken in my world view? (As I do in reverse)