Discharged from the law

Originally posted by @kellyjay to sonship
I imagine it is quite difficult to be joined to someone you are avoiding, and dismissing as
not important.

The "you" can't be referring to sonship. You must be referring to someone else. Why don't you say it directly to him.

Originally posted by @fmf
The "you" can't be referring to sonship. You must be referring to someone else. Why don't you say it directly to him.

One good thing about sonship is that he is willing to discuss these things. The rest of the Christians seem to back away and make snide remarks from the sidelines and attack me personally.

Originally posted by @sonship
[b] Romans 7:6

"But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter."

Romans 7:4

[quote] "So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be join ...[text shortened]... the two husbands in [b]Romans 7:1 - 6.

Then go on to read the whole of chapter 7.[/b]

Matthew 15

Then some Pharisees and scribes *came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother is to [a]be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been [b]given to God,” 6 he is not to honor his father or his mother[c].’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:

8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”
10 After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand. 11 It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

12 Then the disciples *came and *said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were [d]offended when they heard this statement?” 13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides [e]of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

The Heart of Man
15 Peter [f]said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16 [g]Jesus said, “Are you still lacking in understanding also? 17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is [h]eliminated? 18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, [i]fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”

Originally posted by @rajk999
Someone is joined to Christ by his acceptance of His doctrine and by his willingness to follow His commandments.

Nobody is joined to Christ by professing with their mouth that they believe only.

Jesus will judge who is joined and who is not. Paul was clear that a life of sin removes any perceived joining with Christ, while a life of good works and rig ...[text shortened]... eates that join' you speak of.

Talk is nothing .. good works and righteousness is everything.

By accepting the doctrine of Christ according to Rajk999, and not according to Paul?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
By accepting the doctrine of Christ according to Rajk999, and not according to Paul?

What was the reason Jesus gave for rejecting those who called out to him lord, lord?

Originally posted by @fmf
The version of Christianity Rajk999 has in his crosshairs is "OSAS". Why don't you debate it with him rather than make broad discussion-avoiding comments about him?

I merely asked him a question, which I see he passed on by.

Originally posted by @leunammi
I merely asked him a question, which I see he passed on by.

Rakk likes part of what Jesus says, but doesn't like other parts. The parts he likes fit neatly with popular culture and the parts he doesn't like don't.

He's a variation on the theme of following the world.

Originally posted by @leunammi
I merely asked him a question, which I see he passed on by.

Oh .. ok. Your question is
It just seems that you have this me against Christians thing about you, while people that don't believe in God at all and mock & ridicule at different times are comrades. Why is that?

My answer is If Jesus was in need of help :
or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison,
The ones most likely to stop and help would be those like FMF, Ghost, Sonhouse and a few others here. The ones least likely to help would be a few Christians here who said that good works are trying to earn ones salvation. Some time ago I asked this very question and the response from some Chrsitians quite negative.

A follower of Christ can be anyone. My brothers in Christ are those who do two things:
- they profess that they know the teachings of Christ
- they fashion their lives around living righteously and doing good works, just as Jesus commanded.

My brothers in Christ are not those who just profess their faith with their mouth,

Originally posted by @eladar
Rakk likes part of what Jesus says, but doesn't like other parts. The parts he likes fit neatly with popular culture and the parts he doesn't like don't.

He's a variation on the theme of following the world.

Whats popular culture. You will have to excuse me I live in a backward third world country. We dont have such things as 'popular culture' around here. As for following the world, around here atheism is virtually non-existant.

Originally posted by @rajk999
Whats popular culture. You will have to excuse me I live in a backward third world country. We dont have such things as 'popular culture' around here. As for following the world, around here atheism is virtually non-existant.

To answer your question, do you agree with these words from Jesus?

But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, [i]fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

Do agree with Jesus that the people who accept these things into their lives are bound for destruction?

Originally posted by @kellyjay

"So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God."

I imagine it is quite difficult to be joined to someone you are avoiding, and dismissing as
not important.

A Christian may not take advantage of that joining, but rather neglecting it.

The teaching ends in this -

"But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter." (v.6)

Of course the "letter" then had then was the Old Testament.
However, a person may take the New Testament in the same way - apart from the spirit and in oldness - "oldness of letter".

I think Rajk999 suffers from this. Sure, he has the "New Testament" and he boasts of his awareness of keeping the commandments of Jesus more so than everyone else. But it is mostly and endeavor to serve in the old man and in the "oldness of the letter."

You have the TEN Thou Shalts or Thou Shalt Nots of the law of Moses. Then this man comes along with the 11th, 12th, 13th, ... Nth commandments of Jesus to be tackled in the same way, in the strength of the old man.

In contrast the Apostle Paul said he served in the Gospel in his spirit that was joined to the Lord's Spirit.

"For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of His Son, ..." (Rom. 1:9a)

He served "in newness of [his regenerated] spirit. Therefore he also served not in oldness of the old man, but [b]"in newness of spirit".

Paul knew that one part of his being WAS actually Jesus Christ in him.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

"For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba Father!

The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God." (Rom. 8:15,16)

He emphasizes the "organic" union putting him in God's family with God's life within.
This is the experience of serving "in newness of spirit" - a human spirit that is joined to the Lord Jesus blending Christ with our innermost being.

Originally posted by @eladar
Matthew 15

[b]Then some Pharisees and scribes *came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your fat ...[text shortened]... re the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”[/b]

Amen to all this portion of the word of God.
I am not ignoring your contribution. I have some other things I want to reply to first.

Originally posted by @rajk999
Oh .. ok. Your question is
It just seems that you have this me against Christians thing about you, while people that don't believe in God at all and mock & ridicule at different times are comrades. Why is that?

My answer is If Jesus was in need of help :
or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison,
The ones most likely to s ...[text shortened]... commanded.

My brothers in Christ are not those who just profess their faith with their mouth,

Thank you for your reply, I understand a bit better where you are coming from.

I do have a question though.

How do you know who they are that "fashion their lives around living righteously and doing good works, just as Jesus command"?

Seems to me that is a personal matter in one's daily life.

Is it just an answer resulting from a question you asked in a debate forum some time ago?

Originally posted by @leunammi
I am not sure of what you mean by 'standard church doctrine' there are literally 10's of thousands different churches, are they all wrong in your mind? It just seems that you have this me against Christians thing about you, while people that don't believe in God at all and mock & ridicule at different times are comrades. Why is that?

Why do you conflate questioning and challenging with mocking and ridiculing?

Rajk999

You needed someone to explain that to you ?
Nothing profound at all about it -- its simple common sense
I know a few teenage Christians who can tell you what Paul means.

So let's see how he helps.

The Law of Moses is dead [first husband]
Therefore people are free from that law.

No, It doesn't say the Law of Moses is dead. It says that the Christian in some sense has died to that to which he was held as an old man.

"But now we have been discharged from the law, having DIED to that in which we were held ..." (v.6)

He didn't write that the Law of Moses died.

Christ is the new husband

This is true. Christ in resurrection is the new husband. But you did not identify who the old husband was.

When Adam fell the good created man became under the old man. In this sense the old husband is the old man that came about in the Fall of Adam.

Who then is the wife ?
The wife is the created man who is in the position of a female for God to marry.
"Your Maker ... is your Husband" says God in Isaiah 54:5.

Men and women, boys and girls, males and females were originally created to be as a Wife to our Creator God. At the fall of Adam into sin we married the fallen Adamic man, the corrupted human nature. That fallen man became our husband.

And that old man is the tyrant husband. If the original man marries another man, it is as if she commits adultery while the old man, the old husband is still alive.

It is crucial to see that in God's new covenant salvation the old man was crucified and buried with Christ in His death and burial. In His resurrection we are discharged from the law of the old man, the old husband and set to marry the replacement - the resurrected Jesus Christ.

"For the married woman ..."

That is the original created man who was made to be joined as a wife to God.

"For the married woman is bound by the law to her husband while he [the old husband] is living."

The law of God was given to the old man to expose him. The law of Moses here is the law of the husband binding the woman of the original created man.

Christ died to put to death the old man. Christ died to discharge the wife from the old husband and join the wife to Himself as the resurrected new Husband. The new Husband is still our Maker God. But He is now our Maker God become one of us in incarnation.

Therefore people are now under the law of Christ
Also called the commandments of Christ

The law of Christ is a living Person - the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
it is the law of His life which can spontaneously activate in us if we receive Him and set the mind on the mingled spirit where the Spirit of Jesus has joined with man to become "one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) [/quote]

At this point it is good to add that this NEW Husband, Christ in resurrection, put Himself in a form in which He could JOIN our spirit in the innermost part of our being. He BECAME a divine life giving Spirit.

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45b)

The new Husband crucified the old man, the old husband of the fallen corrupted godless man to which we were enslaved as an unhappy wife. And in resurrection He became a divine life imparting Holy Spirit to dispense Himself into our being - joining with us, marrying us, mingling with us, blending with us to live again in oneness with us.

You are under the commandments of Christ.
You have to follow Christ commandments.
Your continued attempts to preach this departure from Christ makes you a false teacher.

If I were preaching "departure from Christ" I would not emphasize hundreds of times that the Christian is JOINED TO THE LORD.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

I have taught paying utmost ATTENTION to being one with Jesus Christ in the deepest spiritual part. You have taught being distracted from Christ to serve in oldness of the letter - treating the New Testament as an extension of the Law of Moses - the 11th, 12th, 13th ... Nth commandments to keep in the strength of self improvement in the old man. .