21 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkWhen you think about how the bible says 'he that calls on the name of the Lord will be saved' does that mean, to your way of thinking, that your answer to this question...
The bible says he that calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Do you dispute this scripture?
Do you seriously believe that you can live a whole life that simply does not attempt to live up to any moral standards or a life involving no effort to engage in morally sound actions (like, for example, aspiring to carry out the commandments Jesus laid out) and then, a few seconds before you die, you can say something like "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom" and you will gain immortality?
... is "yes" or "no"?
21 Aug 16
Originally posted by FMFIf they do it with a sincere and repentant heart like the thief on the cross, yes. Assuming they never heard of Christ and his commands before I can't see why not.
When you think about how the bible says 'he that calls on the name of the Lord will be saved' does that mean, to your way of thinking, that your answer to this question...
[b]Do you seriously believe that you can live a whole life that simply does not attempt to live up to any moral standards or a life involving no effort to engage in morally sound actions (l ...[text shortened]... er me when you come in your kingdom" and you will gain immortality?
... is "yes" or "no"?[/b]
21 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkMy notion - donning your belief in the supernatural for the sake of discussion - is that Jesus can "save" anyone He wants and that he demonstrates this in Luke.
Your notion that unbelievers can be saved if they are confronted with the person of Christ and they mock him till the end.
21 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkWhat evidence do you have that the thief on the cross had a "sincere and repentant heart"? There is simply none in Luke. And if the thief had never heard of Christ and his commands before, as you have asserted, then what is the substance of this "faith"? He's just a desperate dying man calling out mockingly. If he were "saved" it surely cannot be for this "lip service" right at the end.
If they do it with a sincere and repentant heart like the thief on the cross, yes. Assuming they never heard of Christ and his commands before I can't see why not.
21 Aug 16
Originally posted by FMFTo the professing believer who claims to have faith and still has time to do good works. The thief on the cross, had no time left, but Jesus still had mercy on him. You should understand the context.
But without works, as you have explained, the thief's supposed "faith" is dead.
Originally posted by FMFOf course it was evidently not just lip service, Christ could see the repentant heart.
What evidence do you have that the thief on the cross had a "sincere and repentant heart"? There is simply none in Luke. And if the thief had never heard of Christ and his commands before, as you have asserted, then what is the substance of this "faith"? He's just a desperate dying man calling out mockingly. If he were "saved" it surely cannot be for this "lip service" right at the end.
21 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkSo the lesson that Christians (and non-Christians) can draw from your interpretation of Luke on this issue is that the Christian message is not one concerning how one lives one life, but instead, if you say something along the lines of "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom" in your dying seconds, then you will live for all eternity in paradise?
To the professing believer who claims to have faith and still has time to do good works. The thief on the cross, had no time left, but Jesus still had mercy on him. You should understand the context.
Originally posted by FMFNo the lesson is it is never too late to call out to the Lord. Even if you have a bad past, and you are confronted with the person of Christ in your dying seconds he can still have mercy on you. But obviously if you know the commands of Christ now and harden your heart and ignore them you probably will not be repentant on your deathbed and you will not be as fortunate as the thief on the cross.
So the lesson that Christians (and non-Christians) can draw from your interpretation of Luke on this issue is that the Christian message is not one concerning how one lives one life, but instead, if you say something along the lines of "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom" in your dying seconds, then you will live for all eternity in paradise?
21 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkIsn't this circular logic? ... 'Christ only saves the truly repentant, so he must have been truly repentant'. ... It seems more likely (if I play the role of a believer in Christ again for a moment) that Christ was demonstrating something else; his power and prerogative to judge and "save" whoever He wants? Why would He seek to demonstrate that all one has to do is say something with your dying breath and you are "saved" regardless of whether you lived your life in accordance with his commands?
Of course it was evidently not just lip service, Christ could see the repentant heart.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkSo it's not enough to be "repentant on your deathbed"? That is the lesson you draw from your interpretation of Luke's account of this incident?
But obviously if you know the commands of Christ now and harden your heart and ignore them you probably will not be repentant on your deathbed and you will not be as fortunate as the thief on the cross.