Define religion

Originally posted by Palynka
You don't think it's a problem to define religion with "religious" in its definition?

If you mean "religious personages", no, I do not think that it's a problem. I could mention "priests" instead of "religious personages"

😵

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
One deity is orderly, the other chaotic, so its a binary system requiring belief in chaotic and non-chaotic supernatural forces.

Old religions abound with chaotic forces, all supernatural, with Chaos frequently the matrix of being. I'm just not sure why you insist on the non-chaotic part.

An active opposition of a certain order is not truly chaotic in my opinion. Its just a different type of order (which may only seem chaotic because our brains are used to a certain type of order).

I insist on the non-chaotic because I think religion is a way of dictating a certain order on the universe. If I believe that tomorrow it's possible that I completely randomly turn into a tree, then I may have beliefs about a chaotic supernatural.

Originally posted by black beetle
If you mean "religious personages", no, I do not think that it's a problem. I could mention "priests" instead of "religious personages"

😵

But doesn't the definition of priests require religion?

Originally posted by black beetle
I think it does, because it is totally unreasonable, it is based on faith and fanaticism, it serves an “absolute truth” and its aim is the establishment by any means of a specific social control system that reassures “cohesion” and “purpose for the people”, which it forces the individual to obey, communicate, interact, behave and live under specific social norms that are supposedly designed for him for "his own wealth"
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We'll just have to disagree, my friend. I think the metaphor is a useful one, but it implies religion is by definition unreasonable and fanatic if one takes it literally.

Originally posted by Palynka
An active opposition of a certain order is not truly chaotic in my opinion. Its just a different type of order (which may only seem chaotic because our brains are used to a certain type of order).

I insist on the non-chaotic because I think religion is a way of dictating a certain order on the universe. If I believe that tomorrow it's possible that I completely randomly turn into a tree, then I may have beliefs about a chaotic supernatural.

It's only thanks to the efforts of Goodgod (and his friends) that Badgod doesn't succeed in establishing a world according to his taste in which you may tomorrow turn randomly into a tree -- and the worm that gnaws its root, to boot.

Law and Chaos, the eternal twin trope.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Your moral choices partially determine your destiny, more or less. Drastic simplication of the fine-spun web that is the meaning of karma, but anyway. Oh, and, The Butterfly Effect 😵

But does the notion of destiny not require the supernatural? To say no, you have to choose the belief in a clockwork universe.

Originally posted by Palynka
We'll just have to disagree, my friend. I think the metaphor is a useful one, but it implies religion is by definition unreasonable and fanatic if one takes it literally.

Then we will disagree with open heart and mutual respact! I will stick with good ole Weber and Durkheim and I will see you enjoying your own way, and if we are lucky we will give it again a try whenever we 'll have the chance to share an ouzo or some Porto, my friend Palynka
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Originally posted by Palynka
But does the notion of destiny not require the supernatural? To say no, you have to choose the belief in a clockwork universe.

By destiny I merely mean the way your life works out. Obviously your moral choices are only part of what influences your biography.

I don't see how rejecting the supernatural forces one into a clockwork universe. Can't we have a quantum universe instead, with a quantum destiny? Quantum butterflies?

At the same time, I could entertain a clockwork Buddhism ... Cuckoo!

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
It's only thanks to the efforts of Goodgod (and his friends) that Badgod doesn't succeed in establishing a world according to his taste in which you may tomorrow turn randomly into a tree -- and the worm that gnaws its root, to boot.

Law and Chaos, the eternal twin trope.

According to his taste is not pure randomness... Anyway, if the Badgod won, would the seemingly chaos that follows not be a form of order?

Originally posted by Palynka
But doesn't the definition of priests require religion?

It requires religion. Well?
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Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
By destiny I merely mean the way your life works out. Obviously your moral choices are only part of what influences your biography.

I don't see how rejecting the supernatural forces one into a clockwork universe. Can't we have a quantum universe instead, with a quantum destiny? Quantum butterflies?

Not JUST rejecting supernatural forces. I mean believing in destiny and rejecting other supernatural forces.

Originally posted by black beetle
It requires religion. Well?
😵

The circle (circus?) is complete.

Originally posted by black beetle
Then we will disagree with open heart and mutual respact! I will stick with good ole Weber and Durkheim and I will see you enjoying your own way, and if we are lucky we will give it again a try whenever we 'll have the chance to share an ouzo or some Porto, my friend Palynka
😵

Indeed! Thanks for an interesting debate, though. 🙂

Originally posted by Palynka
According to his taste is not pure randomness... Anyway, if the Badgod won, would the seemingly chaos that follows not be a form of order?

I may have to invoke Azathoth if this goes on any longer.

Presumably, yes, in which case order/chaos becomes a meaningless distinction, dropping away like rotten skins from the pristine skeleton of the What-There-Is.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I may have to invoke Azathoth if this goes on any longer.

Presumably, yes, in which case order/chaos becomes a meaningless distinction, dropping away like rotten skins from the pristine skeleton of the What-There-Is.

Exactly! It's meaningless if you define it order/chaos as the goodGod against the badGod...