Christian support of Zionism

Originally posted by RJHinds
I can tell from your statement that you have never read the Bible and do not know what it says. 😏

I get frustrated when I try to read it because it is hard to make sense of it. It probably does not translate well to English. I would not trust anyone to know what it really means but a person that reads Hebrew and whatever other language it was originally written in.

Of course then I might still think his interpretation might be biased. 😛

Originally posted by FMF
It's just one source written by the people it is about. They even claim themselves to be God's "chosen people". That alone would be enough to suggest the material might be inadaquate to make a reasonable, reliable evaluation about the situation.

It's just one source written by the people it is about. They even claim themselves to be God's "chosen people". That alone would be enough to suggest the material might be inadaquate to make a reasonable, reliable evaluation about the situation.

The problem is that we do not have "that alone". We have quite a bit of additional information which shows that being the chosen people of God could conceivably be something a nation would want to avoid rather than persue.

Read the curses associated with not listening to Yawheh and not obeying His commandments as promised in Deuteronomy 28:15- 68 .

In my Recovery Version that section is under the heading of "The Curses That Would Overtake Them for Their Failing to Listen to Jehovah and Do His Commandments".

Anybody else want to be God's Chosen People ??

Originally posted by jaywill
Anybody else want to be God's Chosen People ??

You think this proves something?

Originally posted by jaywill
The problem is that we do not have "that alone". We have quite a bit of additional information which shows that being the chosen people of God could conceivably be something a nation would want to avoid rather than persue.

From what alternative sources? Which other sources claim that the Jews were "God's Chosen people"?

Originally posted by FMF
You think this proves something?

You think this proves something?

I think it demonstrates that if God chooses to select a nation for Himself in that way, the side effects of failure better be carefully considered. It is not all previledge and no responsibility.


Now if you FAIL, here are a few things to expect to happen -

"Jehovah will strike you with the boils of Egypt, tumors, scabs, and itching of which you cannot be healed.

Jehovah will strike you with madness, blindness, and bewilderment of heart and you will be gropping at noonday just as the blind man gropes in darkness; and you will not succeed in your ventures, but will plant a vineyard, but you will not partake of it." (vs. 27-30)

"Your sons and daughters will be given to another people while your eyes look on and fail; from longing after all the day, but you will be powerless." (v.32)

"You will get engaged to a woman, but another man will ravish her ..." (v.30)

"Jehovah will strike you on the knees and legs with terrible boils, of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the top of your head. Jehovah will bring you and your king, whom you will have set over you, to a nation which you and your fathers have not known; and there you will serve other gods, mere wood and stone." (v.35,36)

"And you ... will only be oppressed and plundered always; and no one will save you." (v.29)

"The sojourner who is in your midst will rise above you higher and higher; but you will go down lower and lower." (v.43)

" You will serve your enemies ..." (v.48)

" A nation of fierce countenance, who will not regard an old man's person nor show favor to the young man." (v.50)

"Also every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this law, Jehovah will raise up upon you until you are destroyed." (v.61)

Now this is just the tip of the iceberg of all the negative misfortunes which will befall the "chosen people" for failing to act "chosen".

The previleges of being God's chosen people are counterbalanced by the awesome consequences of failure. So any insinuation that it is easy to be the chosen people of Yawheh in the Bible is naive. A nation might well consider if it is worth it, all things considered.

Failure in the covenant relationship is warned against as being horrible. And it seems that much of the discipline God promises will overtake them could have hardly been worse than what their sworn enemies could have conceived.

So when someone comes to me saying - "Well the Hebrew Bible is just a piece of self flattering, self grandizing ego mania, saying they are God's favorite" I question how much of the Bible they have actually read.

The pandered nation dandled from the lap of God as His favorite is not all that being His chosen nation entails. And the history of Jews suggests that they suffered much consequences of failure in the covenant relationship. The Jews have suffered many curses. It seems that they have been "chosen" more for affliction most of the time.

If a enemy nation to Israel wanted to separate them from all other nations as the object of divine punishment, they could have hardly done better than claiming that God had promised them Deuteronomy 28:15-68 .

The story of Hezekiah and the siege of Jerusalem by the Babylonians brings this out. In effect the seiging Babylonian army tells the Jews - " Hey, we are only doing what YOUR own God said would happen to you if you disobeyed Him. And you did. So we are just here doing the business of your own God. So you must have deserved it."

The enemies used the Jew's own sacred Scriptures as justification for their terrible conquest of Israel. "We are just treating you as God's failed chosen nation. So surrender."

Originally posted by jaywill

You think this proves something?

I think it demonstrates that if God chooses to select a nation for Himself in that way, the side effects of failure better be carefully considered. It is not all previledge and no responsibility.


Now if you FAIL, here are a few things to expect to happen -

[b]"Jehovah will strike you with the bo st treating you as God's failed chosen nation. So surrender."[/b]

So you're suggesting that the Bible makes it clear the Jews are "God's Chosen People" and the Bible proves it by laying out the responsibilities, as "God's Chosen People", that the Jews took on, according to Bible. Right? How is this anything other than a circular argument?

Originally posted by FMF
So you're suggesting that the Bible makes it clear the Jews are "God's Chosen People" and the Bible proves it by laying out the responsibilities, as "God's Chosen People", that the Jews took on, according to Bible. Right? How is this anything other than a circular argument?

For reasons of which I have no idea, my post was automatically banned.

I am asking the moderators what the problem could possibly be.

In the mean time, I was not conducting a formal "proof" of the Israel being the chosen people of God. I was giving evidence that the dismissal of mere self grandizing national egotism written into the Old Testament, seems to me to be naive and unrealistic as a explanation of the "chosen Israel" material in the Bible.

If my post gets ok-ed by the moderators, I had a few additional thoughts there.

Originally posted by jaywill
For reasons of which I have no idea, my post was automatically banned.

I can see it. It's there. it hasn't been banned.

Originally posted by jaywill
In the mean time, I was not conducting a formal "proof" of the Israel being the chosen people of God. I was giving evidence that the dismissal of mere self grandizing national egotism written into the Old Testament, seems to me to be naive and unrealistic as a explanation of the "chosen Israel" material in the Bible.

If my post gets ok-ed by the moderators, I had a few additional thoughts there.

Whether you choose to get hung up on my use of the word "proof" or whether or not it is "formal proof", is neither here nor there. Your post above about the "Chosen People" status claimed in the literature written by the Jews, about themselves, is in some way corroborated by the references to the "responsibilities" of being the "Chosen People", as described in the same literature written by the Jews, about themselves, is going to be a circular argument unless you have some completely different argumentation to offer.

Originally posted by FMF
I can see it. It's there. it hasn't been banned.

I still don't see it from here.

Originally posted by FMF
Whether you choose to get hung up on my use of the word "proof" or whether or not it is "formal proof", is neither here nor there. Your post above about the "Chosen People" status claimed in the literature written by the Jews, about themselves, is in some way corroborated by the references to the "responsibilities" of being the "Chosen People", as described in ...[text shortened]... a circular argument unless you have some completely different argumentation to offer.

Whether you choose to get hung up on my use of the word "proof" or whether or not it is "formal proof", is neither here nor there.

Excuse me. You asked of me, if something I wrote was the proof of something.

I just took your words at face value.

Your post above about the "Chosen People" status claimed in the literature written by the Jews, about themselves, is in some way corroborated by the references to the "responsibilities" of being the "Chosen People", as described in the same literature written by the Jews, about themselves, is going to be a circular argument unless you have some completely different argumentation to offer.

Based on what is written in the Bible and history, that the Jews are a particular people very much seemingly selected for a special mission or purpose, seems realistic to me.

That includes some very positive things that have happened to them, depending on one's point of view. And it also involves some very unfortunate things which have happened to them as well.

A special covenanted people chosen by God, to me, has a lot of evidence to support it.

Do you disagree with that ? Or are you just pointing out that I don't debate well ?

Originally posted by jaywill
Based on what is written in the Bible and history, that the Jews are a particular people very much seemingly selected for a special mission or purpose, seems realistic to me.

"...and history"?