30 Apr 14
Originally posted by Rajk999"...him shall God destroy;.."
A thread devoted to cherrypicking. Feel free to list those statements which I make that include cherrypicking [I dont mind at all].
Here is a popular one from the 'once saved always saved' gang.
[i]1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every ...[text shortened]... - another dangerous fallacy and which can find Biblical support only by extensive cherrypicking.
You're reading into the verse what you want it to say. Losing salvation and being destroyed are not the same thing.
1 Cor. 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
That individual had the flesh destroyed, but the spirit is saved.
There are other examples.
30 Apr 14
Originally posted by moonbusThank you. Nice post.
Catholic and Lutheran thinkers reached a similar impasse some centuries ago. Catholics argued that only the Pope is infallible, thinking they had thereby refuted Luther's heresy. Lutherans countered that, if only the Pope is infallible, then only the Pope knows who the Pope is: that guy in Rome with the big mitre could be an impostor and we'd never know it. ...[text shortened]... e devout Christian, is that a promise has been made and that a path has been shown to salvation.
There is a promise and a path.
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30 Apr 14
Originally posted by moonbus
I think it follows from this that no one can ever be absolutely certain of his own salvation,
Moonbus, the apostle Paul tells the Christians to TEST THEMSELVES to see if Christ is living in them.
"Test your selves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:5)
The believers are to TEST themselves to affirm that they are in the faith, have the indwelling Christ, and are therefore saved.
Am I right ?
since any human effort at repentance might be tainted by insincerity (or by subsequent apostasy).
At the same time we know Jesus taught the disciples that there will be times when they cannot discern a false disciple.
He further instructs them that they should not go throughout the world and attempt to rid the world of false disciples. See Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares.
What we are not assured of is reward or overcoming for the kingdom's manifestation following Christ's return. That is the millennial kingdom.
Paul said that he did not account himself to have already attain, not salvation, but the prize and the reward for service. There is a DIFFERENCE. This is in Philippians.
Given that one cannot be absolutely certain about one's own sincerity and constancy, it follows that no one can be certain about anyone else's either. What is certain, for the devout Christian, is that a promise has been made and that a path has been shown to salvation.
We Christians should not adopt a general policy that we cannot recognize each other as saved believers.
We may have a humble realization that at times we WILL Make a mistake. But we should be bold to confess Christ, live Christ, and assemble together as those who corporately are pursuing Christ for His purpose of building the church.
We will make a mistake at some time. But our living should be such that those who are clearly not in love with the Lord would not WANT to be around us unless they themselves wish to be saved.
30 Apr 14
Originally posted by josephwOne is deliver to SATAN for the destruction of the flesh.
"...him shall God destroy;.."
You're reading into the verse what you want it to say. Losing salvation and being destroyed are not the same thing.
1 Cor. 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
That individual had the flesh destroyed, but the spirit is saved.
There are other examples.
The other is GOD SHALL DESTROY.
Christ said: Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
But everyone can interpret as they wish. As for me I dont like skating on thin ice. I hope you dont either.
01 May 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Thin ice?
One is deliver to SATAN for the destruction of the flesh.
The other is GOD SHALL DESTROY.
Christ said: Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
But everyone can interpret as they wish. As for me I dont like skating on thin ice. I hope you dont either.
Answer this if you will. Did you earn your salvation? Are you earning salvation by doing something? Are you walking on "thin ice" all the time trying to maintain your salvation? Do you have any assurance that you are saved at all?
If Christ died for your sins, how many sins did He die for? All of them? Or just the ones you had committed up to the moment when you were saved?
There are just too many holes in the idea that one can "lose" salvation(righteousness)once God has "declared" one righteous. Romans 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Or is there something missing in your understanding Radj?
Colossians 2:10-13
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Are you "complete in him"? Are you "forgiven...all trespasses"?
01 May 14
Originally posted by josephwSounds like a licence to sin. Hence the corrpution in modern Christianity.
Thin ice?
Answer this if you will. Did you earn your salvation? Are you earning salvation by doing something? Are you walking on "thin ice" all the time trying to maintain your salvation? Do you have any assurance that you are saved at all?
If Christ died for your sins, how many sins did He die for? All of them? Or just the ones you had committed up t ...[text shortened]... forgiven you all trespasses;
Are you "complete in him"? Are you "forgiven...all trespasses"?
I am not part of the lingo of Christian churches. Expressions like 'personal righteousness' which you used recently and now 'earn your salvation' are not in the Bible so you need to explain what you mean by that.
What I do know is what Christ said. He will judge us by our works. Those who have done no good works will be cast out of the kingdom. [Matt 25]
I know of the long complicated analysis people have done to say Matt 25 does not apply to Christians but I dont subscribe to that cheap doctrine.
01 May 14
Originally posted by Rajk999You seem to have some difficulty understanding and handling the scriptures Radj.
Sounds like a licence to sin. Hence the corrpution in modern Christianity.
I am not part of the lingo of Christian churches. Expressions like 'personal righteousness' which you used recently and now 'earn your salvation' are not in the Bible so you need to explain what you mean by that.
What I do know is what Christ said. He will judge us by our works ...[text shortened]... ve done to say Matt 25 does not apply to Christians but I dont subscribe to that cheap doctrine.
Rom. 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom. 6:14,15
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
You need to actually read what I posted in the previous post Radj.
You need to learn and understand God's grace.
Eph. 2:8,9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
01 May 14
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwWhat did Christ say in Matt 25 about eternal life.
You seem to have some difficulty understanding and handling the scriptures Radj.
Rom. 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom. 6:14,15
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then ...[text shortened]... ; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Who gets life eternal and who gets thrown into the lake of fire?
You seem to have some difficulty understanding and handling the Scriptures JosephW.
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01 May 14
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999Saved at 8:00 am -
Sounds like a licence to sin. Hence the corrpution in modern Christianity.
I am not part of the lingo of Christian churches. Expressions like 'personal righteousness' which you used recently and now 'earn your salvation' are not in the Bible so you need to explain what you mean by that.
What I do know is what Christ said. He will judge us by our works ...[text shortened]... ve done to say Matt 25 does not apply to Christians but I dont subscribe to that cheap doctrine.
lost again by 9:15 am -
saved once more at 9:45 -
but lost again by 10:20 -
saved at 11:00 -
but doomed to perdition again by 11:42 -
saved during lunch at 12:00 -
only to be lost again by 12:32 -
saved around 1:15 -
lost again at 2:35 -
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
try again tomorrow.
"The [loan] of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ ..."
01 May 14
2 edits
Originally posted by sonshipFor if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)
Saved at 8:00 am -
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
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01 May 14
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999Others have the attention span to examine those passages carefully.
[i]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, [b]the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)
I am not worried about it in the least. If Peter's name is on the foundation of the eternal city New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14) , with all the blunders and stumbling he did, I know God will bring all born again believers through. And that even if on the way they must pass through some discipline.
Your up and down elevator salvation is not biblical or an answer to anything.
01 May 14
Originally posted by Rajk999So, do you think I'm going to lose my salvation because I don't agree with your interpretations?
What did Christ say in Matt 25 about eternal life.
Who gets life eternal and who gets thrown into the lake of fire?
You seem to have some difficulty understanding and handling the Scriptures JosephW.
01 May 14
Originally posted by sonshipOther like yourself have some twisted desire to change the meaning of these passages because it condemns your doctrine.
Others have the attention span to examine those passages carefully.
[quote] [b][i]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, [b]the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known ...[text shortened]... me discipline.
Your up and down elevator salvation is not biblical or an answer to anything.
The problem is that your doctrine takes what does not belong to you as yet. You take eternal life as if it were yours to take. Eternal life is GODS RIGHT TO GIVE. God will grant eternal life to the faithful and the righteous on the last day, the day of judgment.
The worse part of it is that you arrogantly tell gullible followers in the church that they are saved. The truth is that ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO IS SAVED.
NOT YOU !
01 May 14
Originally posted by josephwChrist is the way, the truth and the life.
So, do you think I'm going to lose my salvation because I don't agree with your interpretations?
No man comes to the Father except through Him.
So go ask Christ.
All I can say is that I choose to believe in what Jesus Christ said FIRST.
I believe all other Bible doctrines SECOND .. a distant second.