15 Mar 05
Daniel 5 has prophesy, but the results of the prophecy are described in the same chapter of Daniel as the prophecy itself. It's hard to be sure that the prophecy did take place before the effect since they were written about at the same time.
In addition, Daniel may have known about the Darius' plot to kill King Bel or at least seen signs that the Medes and Persians might take over soon - it did happen the night Daniel made his prediction. Or, Darius may have felt emboldened by the prediction.
This is not scientifically rigorous or reliable prediction by any means.
15 Mar 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungExamine the Messianic prophecies next, Thousand.
[b]Daniel 5 has prophesy, but the results of the prophecy are described in the same chapter of Daniel as the prophecy itself. It's hard to be sure that the prophecy did take place before the effect since they were written about at the same time.
In addition, Daniel may have known about the Darius' plot to kill King Bel or at least seen signs ...[text shortened]... d by the prediction.
This is not scientifically rigorous or reliable prediction by any means.[/b]
16 Mar 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWell, I just realize that Daniel is not very convincing, when you reject a supernatural excuse out of hand. The Messianic prophecies are harder to disregard due to their sheer numbers.
I don't know if I will want to take the time. I am wary of people who give references for me to analyze, and once I've analyzed give another reference...and another....
17 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusSheer numbers...more motivation for me to not look at them. I don't want to be bogged down in massive amounts of material 🙂
Well, I just realize that Daniel is not very convincing, when you reject a supernatural excuse out of hand. The Messianic prophecies are harder to disregard due to their sheer numbers.
17 Mar 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungHow would you rather spend your time than seeing if what millions of people say is the answer to "why we are here" and "where we are going"?
Don't be a jerk, Darfius. It's not about fear. It's about how I want to spend my time. If I were terrified I wouldn't be going through Daniel, would I?
I did not mean to come off as a jerk. I'm sorry. You're right, you did go through Daniel, though I'm not entirely sure objectively, unless you honestly think Daniel had the most lucky guesses in human history.
17 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusI am spending my time investigating what those millions of people think. How much of it should I spend though? I was told Daniel contained scientific prediction, I investigated the claim, and it was wrong (so far). I've heard arguments which extrapolate from population growth calculations back to Adam and Eve and I've seen how utterly flawed they were via prn's in depth analysis. I've seen how Genesis claims humans were created both before and after plants and is therefore internally inconsistent. I've seen you write that the first woman was a clone of the first man, an impossibility. I spend so much time on this internet forum debating these issues that it's ridiculous. I'm an atheist reading the Bible. What more do you want? An atheist who spends 24/7 reading the Bible? There's more to life, Darfius. I've even heard some of the "messianic prophecy" - someone claimed it was a scientific prediction that the Messiah would ride a donkey, and then Jesus rode a donkey. Now it's clear what the flaw there is - Jesus and everyone else knew about the prophecy, and it's not a hard one to bring into reality!
How would you rather spend your time than seeing if what millions of people say is the answer to "why we are here" and "where we are going"?
I did not mean to come off as a jerk. I'm sorry. You're right, you did go through Daniel ...[text shortened]... honestly think Daniel had the most lucky guesses in human history.
Lucky guesses? His guesses were so vague as to be useless. Which specific guesses (which I have so far covered) are you referring to?
17 Mar 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungKing of Greece.
I am spending my time investigating what those millions of people think. How much of it should I spend though? I was told Daniel contained scientific prediction, I investigated the claim, and it was wrong (so far). I've heard arguments which extrapolate from population growth calculations back to Adam and Eve and I've seen how utterly flawed they ...[text shortened]... ue as to be useless. Which specific guesses (which I have so far covered) are you referring to?
And the year the Messiah would die.
And are you calling Jesus a liar or a deceiver when He rode the donkey?
18 Mar 05
2 edits
Originally posted by DarfiusThose parts of Daniel I covered predict what year the Messiah will die? Which passages exactly?
King of Greece.
And the year the Messiah would die.
And are you calling Jesus a liar or a deceiver when He rode the donkey?
Can you also remind me which passages talk about the King of Greece so I can take another look at them?
Remember, I have only just finished Daniel 5. I'm not done with this thread!
And are you calling Jesus a liar or a deceiver when He rode the donkey?
Not necessarily. I think it's more likely that he, possibly at the suggestion and/or with the encouragement of others, consciously or possibly even subconciously, rode the donkey in order to fulfill the prophecy, than that supernatural forces exist which allowed the Bible to predict the future sheerly through godly omniscience. If there's a prophecy which says the Messiah will ride a donkey, and you think you're the Messiah, it's not a lie to get your butt on a donkey.
Now, in investigating whether the Bible is an accurate predictive tool, I cannot just dismiss this possibility. As we're comparing Biblical prophecy to scientific predictions, I think the prediction was extremely flawed as there was no factor controlling for this alternate explanation about the correlation between the prediction and Jesus being on a donkey.
18 Mar 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungYou'll recognize it when it says "the anointed one will be cut off". It also talks about the Antichrist.
Those parts of Daniel I covered predict what year the Messiah will die? Which passages exactly?
Can you also remind me which passages talk about the King of Greece so I can take another look at them?
Remember, I have only just finished Daniel 5. I'm not done with this thread!
[b]And are you calling Jesus a liar or a deceiver when He rode th ...[text shortened]... alternate explanation about the correlation between the prediction and Jesus being on a donkey.
I didn't realize you were still analyzing Daniel. Good deal.
The point of the donkey prophecy was that it was one of the few times when Jesus was accepted by the majority of Jews. He rode in as a king.
19 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusHave you even been reading what I've been writing? And you have the gall to write
You'll recognize it when it says "the anointed one will be cut off". It also talks about the Antichrist.
I didn't realize you were still analyzing Daniel. Good deal.
The point of the donkey prophecy was that it was one of the few times when Jesus was accepted by the majority of Jews. He rode in as a king.
It saddens me when "reasonable" atheists are terrified to objectively look at all the evidence.