08 Nov 20
@divegeester saidI don't understand what you mean.
The notion that we have free will is erroneous within the context of the Bible and the concept of sin.
Could it have something to do with the statement "There is no “free will” not to sin, we are compelled to sin. We have no choice, it is our nature."?
In that sense I agree. Born in sin, live in sin, die in sin.
But that doesn't excuse one from the personal responsibility of choosing to believe in the solution to the problem.
I spent years struggling over Romans chapter 7. Finally I understood when I read the first verse of chapter 8.
08 Nov 20
@divegeester saidI don't believe I ever said, or equated, freewill with the ability to not sin.
To say that we have free will to not sin, but we still need salvation from sin doesn’t make any sense.
Look, I knew I needed salvation as soon as I decided to stop denying the fact that I was a sinner.
I made a choice. Of my own freewill. I chose Jesus, and He set me free.
And I'll tell you what it was I was set free from in my next post.
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08 Nov 20
@secondson saidAs you pointed out, mankind is born in sin, unlike Adam. Without the empowering spirit of Christ a person cannot be free of it.
I don't understand what you mean.
Also without “Christ we can do nothing” our works are as filthy rags etc.
So if we are trapped in the sinful nature and it is impossible to do any good works and it is Christ alone who empowers us, then it is hardly our fault that we are in the condition we are in.
Of course from day to day we can do more or less “sins” but even if we sat still and did nothing, thought no thoughts all day, we would still go to hell because we are born into sin.
It’s not mankind’s fault that we are born in sin. God is in control. Therefore it is righteous that God saves all of mankind. Hence my previous explanation.
The ideas that God is all powerful all knowing and all loving are completely incongruent with him choosing to save a select few and deliberately keep the rest alive for eternity while he burns them in agony.
08 Nov 20
@divegeester saidAdam had the choice not to disobey. He had a freewill. He chose. Adam chose to disobey while still free of sin. We can't do that. We're born with it.
God is accountable and responsible for this. He came, paid the price and redeemed his entire creation.
You're mischaracterizing HOW God is accountable and responsible for that.
God didn't make a mistake. That's NOT how God is accountable or responsible.
God assumed accountability. He took it upon Himself to pay the price of redemption. God didn't have to do that because it was His fault, but because of who He is.
By the way, think of "redemption" as being made free from the PENALTY of sin.
As long as we're in this body of corruption we will sin.
Redemption - set free from the penalty of sin.
Salvation - set free unto eternal life.
08 Nov 20
@divegeester saidI'm good with what you said up to points 5 and 6.
As you pointed out, mankind is born in sin, unlike Adam. Without the empowering spirit of Christ a person cannot be free of it.
Also without “Christ we can do nothing” our works are as filthy rags etc.
So if we are trapped in the sinful nature and it is impossible to do any good works and it is Christ alone who empowers us, then it is hardly our fault that we are i ...[text shortened]... to save a select few and deliberately keep the rest alive for eternity while he burns them in agony.
"It’s not mankind’s fault that we are born in sin. God is in control. Therefore it is righteous that God saves all of mankind. Hence my previous explanation."
Correct, it's not our fault for being born in iniquity. We're bent toward sin.
God is indeed sovereign, but that doesn't mean man is free of responsibility for his choices. Just because man is a sinner, doesn't absolve him of accountability.
Hence freewill. Otherwise man is no more than a plant or animal.
"The ideas that God is all powerful all knowing and all loving are completely incongruent with him choosing to save a select few and deliberately keep the rest alive for eternity while he burns them in agony."
Your error is thinking that God chose a "select few" to save, and the rest not to save. That is incongruent with what the scriptures teach. God sent His Son to die for all.
So why do some get saved and others don't? God knew in advance who would choose to believe and receive through faith His grace, salvation and the gift of eternal life.
The one that rejects God's salvation, which is in Christ, dies in his sin, and there is no reconciliation after that.
God is not unjust. God is Holy, and sin cannot exist in His presence.
There is clearly a difference between the justified and the lost as taught in the Bible. It's a matter of choice.
Joshua said, "choose you this day...", even Bob Dylan gets it! 🙂
08 Nov 20
@secondson saidYou will not find this doctrine preached by Jesus Christ. You will find that the Apostles preached these doctrines but you are only partially representing them. Paul, Peter, James, Jude and John all peached about redemption and salvation through Christ. Peter I and II are good reading to understand all that this entails. Peter has a long sermon on the life of the born again Christian Saint in Christ. However unlike what you say, it does not auptmatically end with eternal life, unless righteousness and good works continues. There is no guarantee that Chrsitians will continue with these commandments of Christ. In fact many depart and fall away.
Adam had the choice not to disobey. He had a freewill. He chose. Adam chose to disobey while still free of sin. We can't do that. We're born with it.
You're mischaracterizing HOW God is accountable and responsible for that.
God didn't make a mistake. That's NOT how God is accountable or responsible.
God assumed accountability. He took it upon Himself to pay ...[text shortened]...
Redemption - set free from the penalty of sin.
Salvation - set free unto eternal life.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)
You are preaching half the gospel of the Apostles.
08 Nov 20
@divegeester saidAny references ?
As you pointed out, mankind is born in sin, unlike Adam. Without the empowering spirit of Christ a person cannot be free of it.
Also without “Christ we can do nothing” our works are as filthy rags etc.
So if we are trapped in the sinful nature and it is impossible to do any good works and it is Christ alone who empowers us, then it is hardly our fault that we are i ...[text shortened]... to save a select few and deliberately keep the rest alive for eternity while he burns them in agony.
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08 Nov 20
1 edit
@rajk999 saidYes, but I’m not bothered enough to go look for them. Really, I’m not bothered.
Any references ?
I’ve provided detailed scripture references on this topic (and other topics)to you (and others here) and they are ignored in favour of you own (their own) scriptural references.
So what’s the point?
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08 Nov 20
1 edit
@secondson said]There is ample evidence in the bible for the saved being chosen and even predestined.
Your error is thinking that God chose a "select few" to save, and the rest not to save. That is incongruent with what the scriptures teach. God sent His Son to die for all.
So why do some get saved and others don't? God knew in advance who would choose to believe and receive through faith His grace, salvation and the gift of eternal life.
God shows favouritism all through the bible, I can’t remember how many times the bible uses the phrase “God’s chosen people”.
“Vessels designed for destruction”
“We are predestined...”
“Many are called but few are chosen”
Seriously, you aren’t familiar with the concept of God choosing his people?
08 Nov 20
@rajk999 saidBlurt, irrelevancies.
You will not find this doctrine preached by Jesus Christ. You will find that the Apostles preached these doctrines but you are only partially representing them. Paul, Peter, James, Jude and John all peached about redemption and salvation through Christ. Peter I and II are good reading to understand all that this entails. Peter has a long sermon on the life of the born again C ...[text shortened]... delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)[/i]
You are preaching half the gospel of the Apostles.
Blurt, off topic blurts.
Blurt, discrepancies.
Blurt, incoherently.
Blurt, "auptmatically". 🤣
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08 Nov 20
@secondson saidSometimes my cat will bite me for no discernable reason and quickly make her escape anticipating my displeasure.
"Clearly, Portia’s general goal – to catch and eat spiders – is instinctively given; but equally clearly, I should argue, the choice of means to this end in a given case is settled by Portia, on the spot, in a manner sensitive to the affordances of the environment in which she finds herself.' "
What do we mean by "freewill"? Is it merely a set of choices limited b ...[text shortened]... ed to man. In fact, I have no doubt whatsoever that no animal will be joining us in this discussion.
I believe she acts in a way that is motivated by free will, and is also aware it is something she is not meant to do. She made a moral choice to bite me and was aware that choice would have consequences. - In other words, she processed the question, "what happens to me after I bite him?" I don't think her freewill is negated by the inability to understand such concepts as mortality.
08 Nov 20
@divegeester saidSovereignty of God/responsibility of man.
There is ample evidence in the bible for the saved being chosen and even predestined.
God shows favouritism all through the bible, I can’t remember how many times the bible uses the phrase “God’s chosen people”.
“Vessels designed for destruction”
“We are predestined...”
“Many are called but few are chosen”
Seriously, you aren’t familiar with the concept of God choosing his people?
proorizo - translated 4 times predestinate, once ordain and once determine before.
Act 4:28
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1Co 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
This is the kicker: "predestinate" does not mean God chose who would be saved and who would be lost.
What it means is that God knew in advance, before anything was created, who would, of their own freewill, choose Christ and who would not, and therefore predestinated what the outcome of their choice would be.
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
That means God foreknew WHO would believe, then He gave them what they would become.
That's what predestinated means. This is not some kind of puppet show. Man is an autonomous being with the capacity of freewill.
It took me years to understand this. Calvin's doctrine of total depravity notwithstanding.
08 Nov 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidConditioned response. Animals learn. They don't reason. Animals have a soul, they feel happy or sad. They can't reason about why.
Sometimes my cat will bite me for no discernable reason and quickly make her escape anticipating my displeasure.
I believe she acts in a way that is motivated by free will, and is also aware it is something she is not meant to do. She made a moral choice to bite me and was aware that choice would have consequences. - In other words, she processed the question, "w ...[text shortened]... ?" I don't think her freewill is negated by the inability to understand such concepts as mortality.
Animals cannot make moral choices. They aren't accountable. They do not do right or wrong based on the capacity of knowing the difference.
Therefore animals do not have a freewill in the same sense as do human beings.
08 Nov 20
@divegeester saidOf course God is partial [any Christian who cannot see that is a damn fool], but in sending Jesus, the partiality changed focus. Rather than being partial to a group of people, the Jews formerly, now God and Jesus has stated clearly the partiality and the rewards and the blessings and eternal life goes to the righteous. The evil are destroyed.
There is ample evidence in the bible for the saved being chosen and even predestined.
God shows favouritism all through the bible, I can’t remember how many times the bible uses the phrase “God’s chosen people”.
“Vessels designed for destruction”
“We are predestined...”
“Many are called but few are chosen”
Seriously, you aren’t familiar with the concept of God choosing his people?
08 Nov 20
@divegeester
Please do not take offense, but WHY DO YOU TORTURE YOURSELF about the fate of the damned?
In my opinion you have way over exaggerated the issue of hell and what that means.
I know for a fact, because the Bible says so, that the dead will stand before God to be judged.
Revelation 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Big deal! So what! Obviously this event will happen. What's not so obvious is exactly what state of existence the "dead" will experience after being cast into the lake of fire.
I'm of the opinion that the soul and body are utterly extinguished. The problem for me is how is the spirit killed? I don't think it can be. But I do think it is reduced to a worm, without feeling or the ability to sense anything at all.