Atheists against Jesus?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Jesus said explicitly that eternal life is to be gained via belief in him

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies"

Seems pretty explicit to me.

Why are you scared of Jesus's explicit teachings? If you really believed in him you would follow him and have faith and ...[text shortened]...
Why do you follow your own extrapolations and rationalisations. The truth will set you free.

Now if you were to show me where Jesus states that all you need for salvation is profess the belief that He died on the cross for everyone's sins, you might have something.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Now if you were to show me where Jesus states that all you need for salvation is profess the belief that He died on the cross for everyone's sins, you might have something.

I don't think such a belief is neccessary or asked for. Jesus clearly and explicitly says that if we believe on him then eternal life is granted to us. He also clearly and explicitly teaches that his death is there to establish a new covenant and for the "remission of sin" (Jesus' own clear words).

One thing is definitely clear. Jesus believed that he was dying for everyone's sins and that his death on the cross was to establish a new covenant. It was what his Father was asking of him. He also explicitly connected himself directly with the Passover lamb by suggesting that we drink his blood (wine) and break bread (as his body). Are you suggesting that it's not important for us to believe in what Jesus was trying to achieve via his death?

None of this matters though because I can still just argue that it is Jesus's clear and explicit message that we believe in him and we are saved to eternal life by this belief. No extrapolation needed , it's his own words. His words are clear. Why do you choose to ignore them and follow your own extrapolations?

The truth will set you free

Originally posted by knightmeister
I don't think such a belief is neccessary or asked for. Jesus clearly and explicitly says that if we believe on him then eternal life is granted to us. He also clearly and explicitly teaches that his death is there to establish a new covenant and for the "remission of sin" (Jesus' own clear words).

One thing is definitely clear. Jesus believed that ...[text shortened]... hoose to ignore them and follow your own extrapolations?

The truth will set you free

In the verse you cite He doesn't specify what He means by "believe".

However, elsewhere Jesus warns that talking the talk isn't enough:
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

There Jesus also states what is required as He does elsewhere:
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him."

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words"

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Jesus also warns that continuing to sin is against His commandments:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
In the verse you cite He doesn't specify what He means by "believe".

However, elsewhere Jesus warns that talking the talk isn't enough:
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

There Jesus also states what is required as He does elsewhere:
"He that ts sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."

HALLELUIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At last you see the light!!! 😀

Finally you are starting to see how to use various verses of Jesus in conjunction with each other. You are right , it's not enough to believe (ie - talk the talk but not walk the walk) . Belief that saves has to be genuine belief and the way we know it is comes from walking the walk. Jesus's statement about the saving power of faith and belief has to be understood with reference to the verses you love to quote (and vice versa). It's taken this long for you to realise how verses CAN be used together to compliment each other.

But , take a deep breath....this is exactly what St Paul teaches. St Paul had very strong words for those who professed belief but did not back it up with holiness. He was always writing letters about moral conduct and sin and behaviour , exhorting the church to press on and live out their faith in love. He suffered great persecution for his faith which is probably more than you have suffered for your beliefs. But he never swayed from the Gospel of grace either and did not downplay the power of faith and belief. He had an immense conviction as far as I can see that a man's belief should be supported by his committment to truth , love compassion. Frankly , I can't work out why you are not a big fan. I challenge you to find even one passage where St Paul treats sin lightly. I challenge you to find one passage where Paul downplays the importance of righteousness and personal intergity.

Originally posted by knightmeister
HALLELUIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At last you see the light!!! 😀

Finally you are starting to see how to use various verses of Jesus in conjunction with each other. You are right , it's not enough to believe (ie - talk the talk but not walk the walk) . Belief that saves has to be genuine belief and the way we know it is comes from wal mmittment to truth , love compassion. Frankly , I can't work out why you are not a big fan.

What are you talking about? I didn't say anything in my last post that's any different from what I've been saying all along.

Jesus teaches salvation through righteousness, i.e., following His commandments, overcoming sin, etc.

"Salvation by grace Christians" seem to believe other than this. This belief seems to have been built upon extrapolations of the extrapolations of Paul.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What are you talking about? I didn't say anything in my last post that's any different from what I've been saying all along.

Jesus teaches salvation through righteousness, i.e., following His commandments, overcoming sin, etc.

"Salvation by grace Christians" seem to believe other than this. This belief seems to have started with Paul.

Have you been hitting the bottle again?

Maybe you have done it before but you were using two verses in conjunction with each other to shed light on their meaning. The verses surrounding belief leading to eternal life don't make sense without the other verses and vice versa. They compliment each other as do the concepts of salvation by works and salvation by grace to produce a greater truth that includes them both.

As regards St Paul I still don't understand why a man who was not doubt far tougher than you on sin and suffered more persecution for his belief than you will ever likely suffer does not command at least some passing respect from you. St Paul was no woolly flip flop theologian , he was very strong on moral integrity , love and truth. I doubt he had much time for those who were taking the mickey with their faith and would have had no problem with any of the verses you tend to quote. Infact I have no doubt that he would be stronger on them than you are. The concept of salvation by grace that you seem to portray of being "just believe and that's all there is to it" would have been strongly rejected by St Paul.

It's ironic that you see him as opposed to your theology when infact he would be far more tough talking than you are if he was on this forum.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Maybe you have done it before but you were using two verses in conjunction with each other to shed light on their meaning. The verses surrounding belief leading to eternal life don't make sense without the other verses and vice versa. They compliment each other as do the concepts of salvation by works and salvation by grace to produce a greater truth ology when infact he would be far more tough talking than you are if he was on this forum.

Are you for real? Try reading this again. Evidently you're having difficulty comprehending it.

What are you talking about? I didn't say anything in my last post that's any different from what I've been saying all along.

Jesus teaches salvation through righteousness, i.e., following His commandments, overcoming sin, etc.

"Salvation by grace Christians" seem to believe other than this. This belief seems to have been built upon extrapolations of the extrapolations of Paul.

If you've always believed that one must overcome sin to gain salvation as Jesus taught, then what have you been busting my chops about? Because that's what I've been saying all along.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Are you for real? Try reading this again. Evidently you're having difficulty comprehending it.

[b]What are you talking about? I didn't say anything in my last post that's any different from what I've been saying all along.

Jesus teaches salvation through righteousness, i.e., following His commandments, overcoming sin, etc.

"Salvation by grace t have you been busting my chops about? Because that's what I've been saying all along.

Where does Jesus say explicitly that one must overcome sin to gain salvation? Where does jesus say there is no place for the imperfected in his kingdom?

This is my point. At base you are an extremist who is only capable of seeing things in black and white terms. I thought a few light bulbs might be going off. I was wrong. You are just inflexible in your thinking and nigh impossible to debate with. Your system is too well oiled to get past , you must have been practicing it a long time. I used to think that you were just plain stubborn but I'm now coming round to the idea that you are just too.....well...dim.... to comprehend certain things.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Where does Jesus say explicitly that one must overcome sin to gain salvation?

I must have shown this to you at least a dozen times. Evidently you need this translated in detail.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."

"Truly, truly"
Jesus is saying that He really, really means what follows. I'm thinking He's serious, so take heed.

"I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
Jesus is saying that everyone who commits sin, is enslaved by it. Note that this is not qualified by "except for those who are trying", "except for those who say they believe in Me", "except for those who are struggling", "except for the occasional sin" or any other exceptions. This part's important. Make sure you keep it in mind.

"The slave does not remain in the house forever."
Now remember that the meaning of "slave" was established in the preceding clause. It means "everyone who commits sin". Also keep in mind that He specifies no exceptions.

I really hope this helps. We can tackle the following later if you like:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I must have shown this to you at least a dozen times. Evidently you need this translated in detail.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."

"Truly, truly"
Jesus is saying that He really, really means what follows. I'm thinking He's serious, so take heed.

"I say to llowing later if you like:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

Do you notice something about this quote...


"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."

You should do , it's incomplete. Jesus goes on to say that "it is the Son that sets you free"

I fail to see how you can use a verse like this without quoting it in it's entirety. Jesus describes the problem (slavery to sin) , and describes the consequences and then describes the solution.

The key bit is the solution to slavery to sin. Jesus is saying we are slaves to sin , basically infering we are in captivity in sin. The slave concept is very important. Now you need to think what Jesus meant when he said "the Son will set you free".

It's interesting that he said this because it hints strongly that it is Jesus himself as the Son of God that is somehow going to set us slaves free. Now I don't know about you , but this is sort of clear but not explicit either. For me it brings us images of Jesus coming to pick the lock to my jail cell or removing a set of chains from my hands. It certainly suggests some kind of activity on God's part for me to be set free , otherwise he would have just told us to set ourselves free. What we do know is that Jesus deliberately chose the imagery of slavery and being set free from captivity by an outside agent (the Son). He also clearly lays out our role as well because any slave that is set free still has to get up and walk out of bondage as well.

Funny thing is that God's activity in reaching out to man is known as....wait for it.............grace. Jesus is clearly saying that his role in this is to set us free (the son sets you free). Of course you will say that this is an extrapolation but unfortunately Jesus has left us little choice in this because he has offered a very strong suggestion that he is to play a role in our release from captivity. What that role is is left for us to fathom.

Ultimately , this starts to make more sense when we think about what Jesus said about the last supper , the cross , and the Holy Spirit etc. Could it be that Jesus , whilst strongly exhorting us to repent and do away from sin , is also intending that this should be a joint effort and that grace also plays a part? Bear in mind that the incarnation itself is an act of grace from God to man from the beginning.

So what do you make of this . Jesus could have said "try harder to overcome sin and you will" , or " set yourselves free" but no , he said the Son will set you free. Curious.

BTW- Next time you quote this passage it would be nice if you could also quote that slightly important bit at the end as well. It's bad form to be so selective with his words.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Do you notice something about this quote...


"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."

You should do , it's incomplete. Jesus goes on to say that "it is the Son that sets you free"

I fail to see how you can use a verse like this without quoting it in it's enti ortant bit at the end as well. It's bad form to be so selective with his words.

You really seem to have trouble staying on topic. I should have know I'd be faced with yet another KM tangent.

I was afraid that I hadn't narrowed the quote down sufficiently for you to keep your focus. So we'll narrow it down some more.

Here's your question:
"Where does Jesus say explicitly that one must overcome sin to gain salvation?"

Now it's important to keep this in mind at ALL times. Do you think you can manage to do that? I know you're going to want to race off to something else, but let's really FOCUS.

Here's the key phrase from the verse:
"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

This means that slaves to sin are everyone who commits sin.
It also means that everyone remains a slave to sin until they have stopped committing sin.
Now someone who hasn't stopped committing sin hasn't overcome sin. If they had overcome sin, they would wouldn't be sinning anymore, would they?

I hope I'm not throwing to much at you at one time. Please try and keep your focus this time.

So let's review. What's the question? That right, ""Where does Jesus say explicitly that one must overcome sin to gain salvation?"

How long does one remain a slave to sin? That's right, until one has overcome sin.

Hopefully this is enough to go on. Let's see if you can figure out the answer to the question.

By the way, if you can demonstrate that you understand this topic, we can talk a little bit about the tangent you went on.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You really seem to have trouble staying on topic. I should have know I'd be faced with yet another KM tangent.

I was afraid that I hadn't narrowed the quote down sufficiently for you to keep your focus. So we'll narrow it down some more.

Here's your question:
"Where does Jesus say explicitly that one must overcome sin to gain salvation?"

Now it' ...[text shortened]... stand this topic, we can talk a little bit about the tangent you went on.

Fascinating. Notice how you seem to completely deflect away from Jesus's very words from the very passage you are refering to. You refer to it as a KM tangent but these are not my words as you well know. "The Son shall set you free" - did KM say that? I think not. So for all your talk about overcoming sin you are still ignoring what Jesus said about how we are to be set free.

Why do you do this? How can you think you are maintaining a consistent position when you freely quote Jesus on one hand and then dismiss his words as a "tangent" on the other??? Do you even have any interpretation of what Jesus meant by the words "the son shall set you free"???? If this quote belonged to another passage it your "tangent" idea might be valid , buit this quote is a key component of the passage we are discussing and even uses the same imagery/ metaphors (slaves- set free )

Originally posted by knightmeister
Fascinating. Notice how you seem to completely deflect away from Jesus's very words from the very passage you are refering to. You refer to it as a KM tangent but these are not my words as you well know. "The Son shall set you free" - did KM say that? I think not. So for all your talk about overcoming sin you are still ignoring what Jesus said about ho passage we are discussing and even uses the same imagery/ metaphors (slaves- set free )

You're about as dense as they come.

The explanation for what Jesus meant by the words "the son shall set you free" has already been addressed by the following:
"If you believed Jesus, you would follow His commandments. If you followed His commandments, you would be righteous. If you were righteous, you would have salvation from sin."

Now, can we get back on topic?

The point is that Jesus explicitly states that one must overcome sin to gain salvation. Are you able to comprehend the explanation or not? If you still are unable to understand it, it is pointless to continue.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You're about as dense as they come.

The explanation for what Jesus meant by the words "the son shall set you free" has already been addressed by the following:
"If you believed Jesus, you would follow His commandments. If you followed His commandments, you would be righteous. If you were righteous, you would have salvation from sin."

Now, can we ge ...[text shortened]... explanation or not? If you still are unable to understand it, it is pointless to continue.

I understand your explanation I just don't agree with it.

It seems plain to me that "the son sets you free" strongly suggests that the Son actually does something in order for us to be set free. This statement suggests most strongly that it is the Son that actually does or starts the process of setting us free.

When something is set free (eg an animal or a slave or a sailboat) is always means that whatever has been tethering it or keeping it set in it's place (eg- a rope , an anchor , or chains for a slave) is broken or removed by someone. If the setting free does not take place then the thing remains in captivity. This also fits perfectly with the idea of being in slavery and the image of a slave. It can't get much simpler than this.

The problem is that the phrase "the Son shall set you free" can be extrapolated in different ways. You could say that Jesus is saying that it is his teachings that are setting us free and he is just being a bit clumsy and vague with his language. Or you could equally say that Jesus is saying something else that ties in with the last supper and the "remission of sins" (Jesus) and the grace activity of the Holy Spirit.

So we are left to extrapolate on this whether we like it or not. Your problem is that you need to show why your extrapolation is more valid than mine and how it is substantiated. So far all you have done is claim your extrapolation to be utterly self evident and you have not shown why. It's as if you think there's only one possible extrapolation possible.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I understand your explanation I just don't agree with it.

It seems plain to me that "the son sets you free" strongly suggests that the Son actually does something in order for us to be set free. This statement suggests most strongly that it is the Son that actually does or starts the process of setting us free.

When something is set free (eg a ...[text shortened]... not shown why. It's as if you think there's only one possible extrapolation possible.

I can see that it's pointless.