Atheists against Jesus?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The usual KM tack. You have a real problem dealing with the fact that Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. So now it's on to the usual steady stream of red herrings, distortions, false accusations, etc. I'm not really interested in following you around in the circles that you lead everyone.

The bottom line is that I believe in the teachings o ...[text shortened]... l.

What I believe in is righteousness.

What you believe in is seeking what you can get.

"The bottom line is that I believe in the teachings of Jesus while you believe in the teachings of Paul."

Obtuse!



What Paul taught is beyond your ability to comprehend. That's why you cling to a theology designed for the Jew prior to- "Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,"

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"The bottom line is that I believe in the teachings of Jesus while you believe in the teachings of Paul."

Obtuse!



What Paul taught is beyond your ability to comprehend. That's why you cling to a theology designed for the Jew prior to- "Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Ch ...[text shortened]... , according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,"[/b]

Evidently another follower of Paul.

Is it your belief that Jesus was too obtuse to comprehend what Paul taught or simply wasn't in on the "secret"?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The usual KM tack. You have a real problem dealing with the fact that Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. So now it's on to the usual steady stream of red herrings, distortions, false accusations, etc. I'm not really interested in following you around in the circles that you lead everyone.

The bottom line is that I believe in the teachings o ...[text shortened]... l.

What I believe in is righteousness.

What you believe in is seeking what you can get.

Christfight!

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Evidently another follower of Paul.

Is it your belief that Jesus was too obtuse to comprehend what Paul taught or simply wasn't in on the "secret"?

1Tim.1:15, 16

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Originally posted by josephw
1Tim.1:15, 16

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, [b]for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.[/b]

Why does living up to the words of Jesus scare you so much?

If you truly believed in Jesus, you would follow His commandments. Instead you chose to follow others.

John 14:21-22
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The usual KM tack. You have a real problem dealing with the fact that Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. So now it's on to the usual steady stream of red herrings, distortions, false accusations, etc. I'm not really interested in following you around in the circles that you lead everyone.

The bottom line is that I believe in the teachings o ...[text shortened]... l.

What I believe in is righteousness.

What you believe in is seeking what you can get.

"The bottom line is that I believe in the teachings of Jesus while you believe in the teachings of Paul. " --toO

...Nope , the bottom line is that you believe in only some of the teachings of Jesus but deceive yourself about the other aspects of his ministry. The reason why I know this to be true is that you consistently fail to explore or debate any of Jesus' other teachings seemingly in the hope that they will go away and you only focus selectively on the ones that support your position.

Any journalist who was similarly selective and biased with the evidence would not be taken very seriously. So when you say things like this all I have to do is challenge you to explore ALL of Jesus' teachings in context with the entire Bible over a series of verses not just a few. You will then refuse to take up the challenge (usually by labelling it as a "red herring " or something ) , and that's how I know that you have no argument.

Anyone can take a few verses and make a distorted theology out of it and then reel them off repetitively but it is no substitute for an deeper overview of the entire span of jesus' ministry and teachings.

So how about you stop pontificating as if you really do have your precious "bottom line" when you haven't got the intellectual integrity to admit that there's a whole lot of other things Jesus taught that you refuse to explore with anyone as far as I can see. Until you have the guts to do so you have not earned the right to think that you have some kind of "truth". You may fool yourself but I never bought it once.

Originally posted by bbarr
Christfight!

No , truthfight!

Originally posted by knightmeister
"The bottom line is that I believe in the teachings of Jesus while you believe in the teachings of Paul. " --toO

...Nope , the bottom line is that you believe in only some of the teachings of Jesus but deceive yourself about the other aspects of his ministry. The reason why I know this to be true is that you consistently fail to explore or debate an t you have some kind of "truth". You may fool yourself but I never bought it once.

The usual KM tack. You have a real problem dealing with the fact that Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. So now it's on to the usual steady stream of red herrings, distortions, false accusations, etc. I'm not really interested in following you around in the circles that you lead everyone.

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

You have shown that there's no room for truth in KM's world. A world where two half-truths equal a whole truth. A world where two contrary positions can both be true. There's little point in discussing anything with someone who lives in such a world.

Perhaps someday you'll set aside your pride and seek truth. Evidently that day has yet to come as evidenced by the following: "However , the difficulty here is understanding the duality of God's omniscience. He a) knows what you will do tomorrow because tomorrow is already the past for him and b) at the point where you make tomorrow's choices he is still 'blind' because he has given you free will and has to 'wait' to see what you will do with your freedom. It's not a) or b) it's both ."

Your pride continues to make you the fool.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The usual KM tack. You have a real problem dealing with the fact that Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. So now it's on to the usual steady stream of red herrings, distortions, false accusations, etc. I'm not really interested in following you around in the circles that you lead everyone.

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disci ...[text shortened]... . It's not a) or b) it's both ."

Your pride continues to make you the fool.

The usual ToO trick is more accurate. Once again a direct challenge to explore the entire collection of Jesus's teachings is passed over in exchange for some obscure connecting of an argument about omniscience with my "pride". What on earth has any of that got to do with what we are debating? This is desperate stuff indeed!

You also seem unable to grasp the subtle nature of truth and how God attempts to keep men on the right path. On the one hand God is aware that men are quite capable of falling into the trap (1) of thinking that they just have to mouth the words "Lord Lord" and proclaim faith and that is enough. God protects us from shallow believism with such verse as you love to quote.

On the other hand trap 2 is waiting over the other side of the hill for those who think that they can stand before God on their own righteousness and have no need for grace or faith . This is where the other well known verses come in to protect us from downplaying the saving grace of Christ through the cross.

When we get too close to either of these traps God has strong words for us in both cases.

So surely you can appreciate that when you put these two exhortations together that they compliment each other and lead the intelligent reader (who is able to hold two seemingly opposing thoughts together in their mind) that the truth in it's entirety emerges. God is not saying "salvation is achieved by grace and all you need is to believe" NEITHER is he saying " you can be saved via your own righteousness" Instead he says " salvation by grace has to be questioned if it is not accompanied by works and committment , but also don't think that you can get their own your own righteousness either because my grace is the key through faith"

Your problem is that you are utterly obsessed with trap 1 to the detriment of trap 2 and do not see the path between the two that God wants you to follow. This is why you don't want to discuss the whole picture because you cling tenaciously to the little picture and don't see how the entire puzzle fits together. To do this you need and adult intelligent approach to scripture that takes into account complimentary verses otherwise all you will do is run blindly from trap 1 headfirst into trap 2 (if you are not there already).

A man learning to fly when told to bank left does not cry out " but only a second ago you told me to bank right - so which is it left or right? " Why? Because he understands that to keep the plane on track he needs to be constantly banking between left and right and avoid the trap of falling sideways out of the sky. Two complimentary , seemingly conflicting instructions forming a whole truth.

BTW- It would also useful if you dropped the "red herrings" mantra. Others in this forum will know like me that that's all it is - a mantra - if you have an argument please state it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The usual ToO trick is more accurate. Once again a direct challenge to explore the entire collection of Jesus's teachings is passed over in exchange for some obscure connecting of an argument about omniscience with my "pride". What on earth has any of that got to do with what we are debating? This is desperate stuff indeed!

You also seem unable to that that's all it is - a mantra - if you have an argument please state it.

You seem incapable of discussion using logic or reason which you have demonstrated time and again. Such a limitation is makes having a reasonable discussion impossible.

I have stated my argument clearly and concisely. I have shown how the words of Jesus explicitly support my position. You on the other hand have only demonstrated that you believe in the teachings of Paul.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You seem incapable of discussion using logic or reason which you have demonstrated time and again. Such a limitation is makes having a reasonable discussion impossible.

I have stated my argument clearly and concisely. I have shown how the words of Jesus explicitly support my position. You on the other hand have only demonstrated that you believe in the teachings of Paul.

Did you even read the rest of the post ?

Of course , those words support your position because your position is all about avoiding trap 1 and trap 1 only. The greatest lies are of course based on polarised exaggerated half truths and run very close to the real truth. But they are always incomplete because they latch onto the truth like a parasite feeding off the blood of truth and using the truth to support itself but never allowing itself to succomb to the truth it is feeding off. This is why you will never explore anything other than those verses of Jesus that you mistakenly think support your position.

It's very hard to argue with because there is a seed of truth in everything you say .But the most dangerous replicas are the near perfect Rolex counterfeits. I will give you credit for a superb replica but it is still an incomplete counterfeit without all the correct pieces to hold it together. Fortunately I am not the only one around here who has a trained eye.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Did you even read the rest of the post ?

Yes I did.

Like your multitude of ""free will/omniscience" threads, a poorly conceived argument put in a different package is still the same argument. It's a pity that you seem incapable of comprehending this.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Yes I did.

Like your multitude of ""free will/omniscience" threads, a poorly conceived argument put in a different package is still the same argument. It's a pity that you seem incapable of comprehending this.

You have said several times that my argument is unreasonable and porrly constructed but you have not once pointed out where I am going wrong NOR have you engaged in any of the arguments I have put forward in this thread. All you have done is repeated yourself over and over and over again without any attempt to back up your position or substantiate your position. If you read the whole thing and you think my point illogical then say why and provide evidence, maybe then I would have half a chance of comprehending whatever it is I am supposed to comprehend (lol)

Please tell us all why it is unreasonable to take into account all of Jesus's teachings instead of cutting and pasting luke et al and hiding behind verse quotes. It is not enough to say my argument is poorly conceived without engaging with it or explaining why you say this. Please tell us all why the idea of complimentry truths is so ridiculous . Expplain your reasoning rather than just stating things as if repeating it will make you sound more right each time.

You may not like my argument but at least I have tried to explain it from many different angles. That's a lot harder than your cut and paste approach.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You have said several times that my argument is unreasonable and porrly constructed but you have not once pointed out where I am going wrong NOR have you engaged in any of the arguments I have put forward in this thread. All you have done is repeated yourself over and over and over again without any attempt to back up your position or substantiate you o explain it from many different angles. That's a lot harder than your cut and paste approach.

Like I've told you before, I have little interest in being lead around in circles like you're wont to do.

If you can show how the words of Jesus explicitly support your position, then just do so instead of your usual plethora of extrapolations and analogies.

I'm especially interested in where he says something to the effect of:
"You know all those places where I said that righteousness is required for salvation - well, I was just pulling your leg".

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Why does living up to the words of Jesus scare you so much?

If you truly believed in Jesus, you would follow His commandments. Instead you chose to follow others.

John 14:21-22
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Did you miss this while reading your Bible? How can you stand being so narrow minded?