19 Mar 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterAre you really as stupid as you pretend to be? Because you've got me sold on that one.
There you've said it ..."no basis in reality" . That's the whole point , love and meaning have no basis in reality in Atheism. They are no more real or valid than a psychiatric patient creating the idea 'for himself' that he is Julius Caesar. It's all in his own head. Isn't that the whole point of being an Atheist that you believe that love and meaning ...[text shortened]... erent set of questions. Do you not even see that you have something to struggle with?
I know you christians are only semi-literate, but if you look closely you'll see I said your caricature of atheists had no basis in reality. You, then, turn right around and apply that to love and meaning. Work on that reading disability of your's, would you?
You can claim that atheism equals nihilism till you're blue in the face, but that does not make it so. If you had any knowledge of anything outside your tiny, cloistered, biblical fantasy land, you'd see this was so. But you just go ahead and bury your head in the sand and repeat the same lies to yourself all you want.
An atheist claims that love and moraility have no absolute meaning handed down by some pie-in-the-sky god. What meaning they have are given by humans themselves. Their content and meaning are relative and subject to modification over time, but they are still very real concepts for atheists, just as they are for christian fanatics like yourself.
The only one with something to struggle with is you and your very tenuous grasp of reality.
20 Mar 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterIsn't this what the other thread was for?
taken to it's logical conclusion, Atheism = Nihilism.
You are unable to bring the slightest shred of evidence that there is any truth to your belief in existence of god. The only argument the theist can muster are weak, ineffectual Appeals to X. Since this is the case, your claim that morality and meaning are derived from "god" falls down and goes boom.
Ethics and morality quite obviously existed as human concepts before Moses or the new testament. One only has to look to ancient civs that existed before anyone had ever heard of Jehovah...although you might claim that those civs were degenerate (and may be so by today's ethical standards), all that demonstrates is that morality IS mutable. Please do not attempt to extrapolate that 'mutable' = 'for the worse'.
You claim that morality and meaning are derived from the existence of (the Christian) god. Since the atheist rejects your claim that he exists and that the bible is the revealed word of god, we can then determine that morality and meaning are human concepts to make of them what we will. It DOES NOT follow that the atheist will embrace nihilism, despite the theist's misguided attempt to portray pariahs like Hitler (a Catholic) or Stalin as somehow representative of atheism.
20 Mar 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerWhat would motivate me to love somebody who wronged me?
[b]Since I do not believe in an afterlife, most meaning that my life will have will be during this life, however finite that may be. But if I had children, for example, my concern would not be solely with my own life. They would inherit the world I have helped to create. As our lives would be interconnected, I would hope the world would be a better place f ...[text shortened]... t meaning would pain, sorrow and suffering entail in your life? How would you deal with this?
The same thing that motivated Jesus - which was not a god, but the simple way of living, love someone as you want to be loved. It makles sense to me and is not contingent on me believing in a god.
By the way, while we're on this topic, doesn't it strike you as a little incongruent that a country like the US who most would claim is a Christian nation would cling so fervently to capital punishment - which let's face it, is nothing mkore than state sponsored murder? Why is that? Where is the love of the wrongdoer there?
20 Mar 06
Originally posted by amannionState sponsored muder in the US.
What would motivate me to love somebody who wronged me?
The same thing that motivated Jesus - which was not a god, but the simple way of living, love someone as you want to be loved. It makles sense to me and is not contingent on me believing in a god.
By the way, while we're on this topic, doesn't it strike you as a little incongruent that a country li ...[text shortened]... ing mkore than state sponsored murder? Why is that? Where is the love of the wrongdoer there?
Yes, god the omnipotent, omniscient, who knew that this individual would murder (or he's not omniscient), and still gave him life. Humans, in their religious fervour, go against the will of god by killing the chap. Nice. Hope you guys like BBQ.
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20 Mar 06
Originally posted by rwingettThe use of children was just the most obvious example. I could insert family or friends in there just as easily. Atheists are perfectly capable of caring the wellbeing of the people who will survive them.
The use of children was just the most obvious example. I could insert family or friends in there just as easily. Atheists are perfectly capable of caring the wellbeing of the people who will survive them.
Are you claiming that someone who was paralyzed could have no positive impact on the world, or on those around him?
Why should I be required to love ...[text shortened]... old I deal with them? I don't know, but it won't involve Jesus, that much i can tell you.
What type of meaning would an atheist have if all he were to lose all friends and family?
Are you claiming that someone who was paralyzed could have no positive impact on the world, or on those around him?
No. I was asking you what type of meaning such a person would have in life? How would such a person (being an atheist) cope in such a situation?
Why should I be required to love someone who wronged me?
The point is you don't.
I have no idea how I'd cope with the murder of a loved one. I don't think anyone does unless they've experienced it firsthand.
Fair enough. But I would think that it would be easier to cope if you believed that you would still be able to see your beloved in Heaven.
Why would pain, sorrow and suffering have any "meaning" in my life? How wold I deal with them? I don't know, but it won't involve Jesus, that much i can tell you.
Personally I would only find meaning in such circumstances if I remembered how much Jesus suffered for me.
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20 Mar 06
Originally posted by royalchickenI just claimed that peace and meaning are not desirable or possible in all circumstances; ie I posited that there exist circumstances in which feelings of peace are illusory or inappropriate and that there exist circumstances for which any meaning found in them by an observer is actually only in the mind of the observer.
How would you differentiate between a true feeling of peace and an illusionary one? I believe ‘peace’ cannot be illusionary. You either have it or you don’t.
When is ‘meaning’ not only in the mind of the observer?
What is the source of your perfect peace and meaning?
I believe true peace and meaning can only be attained from the true source of peace and meaning. Thus it can only be attained through the having the right relationship with God.
Is accusing sober strangers of being drunk a typical action for a peaceful person who finds meaning in all circumstances?
I thought you would be able to handle a joke… Maybe I thought wrong. So sorry about that…
20 Mar 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerSurely if someone can find meaning without having to resort to a greater being watching over them then that's their prerogative? Who are you to decide which meanings are valid and which aren't?
[b]The use of children was just the most obvious example. I could insert family or friends in there just as easily. Atheists are perfectly capable of caring the wellbeing of the people who will survive them.
What type of meaning would an atheist have if all he were to lose all friends and family?
Are you claiming that someone who was paralyzed ...[text shortened]... only find meaning in such circumstances if I remembered how much Jesus suffered for me.
20 Mar 06
1 edit
Do Christians not value the little things?
If I make a few people's lives (including my own) a little better, is there no value in that?
Is there no value in helping an old woman across the road just because we are both going to die at some point in the future? (Hopefully after we get across the road...)
The Christian position, as represented here, seems to be that it simply does not matter whether I do good or bad if there is no God. I could do the most evil things in the world and be, morally, no worse than a saint. Since this is so counter-intuitive it is for the Christian to show why moral value relies on God, not for the atheist to prove the opposite.
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20 Mar 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzMe thinks you are the one detatched from reality, as God is reality.
Come on RC, I told you this already. It's his detachment from reality that allows such serenity. You normally see it in the eyes of junkies when they score, or mental patients just after pill time.
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20 Mar 06
Originally posted by royalchickenI don't even know what your cocktails and Haldols taste like.😏
Hang on, dj2 was offended by me posting while mildly drunk a while ago, and he thinks he can be taken seriously while under the effects of some rude cocktail of smack and Haldol? Hypocrisy!
20 Mar 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterCan one Christian on this site honestly claim that they live thier lives solely based on thier belief in God. That all they do is for the purpose that thier belief in God creates, that they have no other purposes in life, that thier love would not exist without God etc.
..... taken to it's logical conclusion, Atheism = Nihilism.
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20 Mar 06
Originally posted by XanthosNZNone of you seem to be able to answer the simple question that I asked...
Surely if someone can find meaning without having to resort to a greater being watching over them then that's their prerogative? Who are you to decide which meanings are valid and which aren't?
So OK, I get it.
I am not trying to validate or invalidate your meaning in life. I simply wish to know what your meaning in life would be, as I cannot imagine what the meaning of my life would be without God.
20 Mar 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerDo you then agree that just because you cannot imagine it, this does not mean it is not there?
None of you seem to be able to answer the simple question that I asked...
So OK, I get it.
I am not trying to validate or invalidate your meaning in life. I simply wish to know what your meaning in life would be, as I cannot imagine what the meaning of my life would be without God.
If you agree with this I will be happy to expound my view on your question.