Archangel Michael

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you were lying at worst, mistaken at best, there is only one archangel mentioned in
scripture, you introduced extra biblical sources and apocrypha in an effort to
support your erroneous assertion, if that is not devious or at the very least clutching
at straws then what it is? I have stated it once and I will state it again, the atheists,
ag ...[text shortened]... house servant of another', Paul asks, 'to his
own God he stands or falls', not to yours.

The last chess game we played you said you resigned because
you did not want to play me. So after a period of time, when I
determined that you were not happy with me, I informed you
that I had removed you from my buddy list because it was not
likey that we would want to play each other again. I do my best
to provide truthful information and have your best interests in
mind when I warn you about the false teachings of the Jehovah's
Witnesses Organization called "The Watchtower Bible and Tract
Society."

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its no shame, in fact it was quite productive, for it demonstrates what i suspected all
along, its futile trying to reason with you people, you are not interested in reason, for
you had ample time and opportunity to make a single reference to Galvestons reasons
and not one post, not a measly syllable, endless drivel from Jaywill , pitch fork and
torches from the rest and hysteria from others.

It's tough when you are right and the rest of the world is wrong huh?

you wasted reams of posts telling us what the angel was supposed
to be,, when in fact you could easily have compared Rev 9:11 and Revelation 20:1 and seen that the angel is an agency not from the Antichrist, Satan or daemonic

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousands years." (Rev. 20:1,2)

COMPARE:

"They have a king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon; and in Greek he has the name Apollyon." (Rev. 9:11)

The close proximity of verse 10 and 11 suggest to me that the seer is continuing the NEGATIVE picture of the horrific tormenting locusts released from the abyss:

"And they have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to harm men for five months. (v.10)

They have a king over them, the angel of the abyss, his name in Hebrew is Abaddon; and in Grrrk he has the name Apollyon." (v.11)

I think it is far more likely that verse 11 CONTINUES the negativity of verse 10. Robbie wants me to believe that in the midst of this horror suddenly the supposedly positive Destroyer who is the angel who binds Satan in chapter 20 is mentioned.

But I think the entire contents of what occurs at the blowing of the Fifth Trumpet is a WOE - "Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet! And the fifth angel trumpeted ..." (8:13-91a)

Revelation 9 does not say that Abaddon has a key to the abyss. It says that the star that fell was given the key to the abyss:

"And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key of the pit of the abyss." (9:1)

The key is used to let something OUT in chapter 9.
In chapter 20 the key is used to lock someone UP.

"And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace ... out of the smoke came forth loccusts ..." (9:2)

Compare:

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand, and he lid hold of the dragon ... and bound him for a thousands years (20:1,2) [/b]

One event, the letting out of horrors, is at the beginning of the great tribulation in the FIfth Trumpet. The other event is of victory over Satan and is at the end of the great tribulation AFTER the Antichrist, the beast have been defeated (19:19,20)

I think the more logical interpretation is that the Devil has the key to release his destructive armies. Then after the defeat of Antichrist, this authority is arrested from the Devil and he himself is imprisoned, confined, and bound in that same place from which he previously summoned up evil assistance.

The Devil uses the key destructively in the beginning of the great tribulation. The Lord (possibly the Angel of 20:1), uses the key positively to bind and imprison the ABUSER of that realm.

Furthermore the crowns of the horrible locusts are theirs at the beginning of the great tribulation. But the positive reigning royalty is not awarded to the saints of God until the great tribulation is concluded around the time of the Battle of Armageddon - (Rev. 19).

I judge therefore that the crowns indicating royalty of the horrible locusts, are illegitimate. But the reigning of the saints of God after Antichrist and the false prophet are defeated and thrown alive into the lake of fire, a legitimate and according to God's will.

If Robbie wants to argue that Abaddon (Apollyon) is that angel who binds Satan in the abyss for 1,000 years, he should explain why such a POSITIVE victory would be secured by one whose name is so negative - Destroyer.

No, I do not think the Destroyer is the one who uses the key of the abyss to bind Satan. It is more likely that he uses it to bind the destructive activity, the destructive rampage, the destructive cohorts of the Devil.

Apollyon and Abaddon, I submit, is the one who is totally defeated and sent alive to the lake of fire:

"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. THESE TWO WERE CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE, which burns with brimstone" (my emphasis Rev. 19:20)

The true Destroyer, the Destruction, the Abaddon and Apollyon of Antichrist is himself destroyed. And his boss, Satan, is bound for 1,000 years in that abyss from which the beast was summoned (17:8; 11:7)

You do have the KEY mentioned for both the fallen star and the descending angel. But the former is for negative use and the latter for positive use. One is to release evil and the other is to bind evil.

Authority and power is arrested from the Devil. So whatever "key" he may have enjoyed eventually is the "key" which also confines him for 1,000 years before he himself joins his flunkies in the eternal fire:

"And when the thousand years ae completed, Satan will be released from his PRISON ... the devil, who deceived them, was cast into lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast (Abaddon / Apollyon) and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:7,10)

The Destroyer is not Christ. But the Destroyer himself goes into destruction, into perdition:

"And the beast who was and is not, ... goes into perdition." (See 17:11)

Originally posted by divegeester
It's tough when you are right and the rest of the world is wrong huh?

Well it's happened to God's people many times so why would it be different now?

Please in your opinion what does the scripture mean that says FEW will be the ones gettting thru the narrow gate to life or with having God's approval to live?
Any clue at all?

Originally posted by galveston75
Well it's happened to God's people many times so why would it be different now?

Please in your opinion what does the scripture mean that says FEW will be the ones gettting thru the narrow gate to life or with having God's approval to live?
Any clue at all?

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. There are atheist who are not even
looking for the way. There are many who profess their belief in God and
search for Him through many religions and spiritualism. Even of those
who profess their belief in Jesus, few of those actually know Him. Even
those that claim to do many wonderful works in His name do not know Him
and He does not know them. So of all the people who have ever lived in
this world there are few that find the narrow way, the Lord Jesus (Yahshua).

Originally posted by Rajk999
Not becuase of what you believe but how you communicate. Your entire modis operandi is un-Christlike.

So dont claim 'persecution becuase of Christ'.

Oh but he will, he cant help it

Originally posted by RJHinds
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. There are atheist who are not even
looking for the way. There are many who profess their belief in God and
search for Him through many religions and spiritualism. Even of those
who profess their belief in Jesus, few of those actually know Him. Even
those that claim to do many wonderful works in His name do n ...[text shortened]... have ever lived in
this world there are few that find the narrow way, the Lord Jesus (Yahshua).

Aren't the Christain religions the largest in the world? And isn't the so called religious people in Jesus time supposedly followers of the religion that Jesus was born into and the same ones he made the statement to get away from him because of not worshiping him correctly and proving false to it's power? Was he talking to Budhist or Hindu when he made these statements?
God is the one who judges who he approves. If they have a good heart and know nothing of him and who he is and what he expects of humans, he will no doubt consider that when the time comes to grant life.
So to use them as an excuse for not being able to be approved by God is wrong.
Jesus is referring to the ones who supposedly call on the name of the Lord but yet does not act as a Christian, as in being willing to kill another human because his government tells him too. God will never allow that type human to either be with Jesus in heaven and serve as a King and Judge over humans or to be here on earth and live in the paradise that he promisses. No human that is willing to kill because another human tells him too will never be allowed to be in either place..............

Originally posted by galveston75
Aren't the Christain religions the largest in the world? And isn't the so called religious people in Jesus time supposedly followers of the religion that Jesus was born into and the same ones he made the statement to get away from him because of not worshiping him correctly and proving false to it's power? Was he talking to Budhist or Hindu when he made ...[text shortened]... because another human tells him too will never be allowed to be in either place..............

Is that what the Watchtower tells you? Go ahead and bow to your god.
Let's see if it deserves your trust.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Is that what the Watchtower tells you? Go ahead and bow to your god.
Let's see if it deserves your trust.

It's what your Bible tells you believe it or not. If you weren't so blinded by satan and his paganistic teachings you might learn and understand even the basic truths in your Bible..

Originally posted by galveston75
It's what your Bible tells you believe it or not. If you weren't so blinded by satan and his paganistic teachings you might learn and understand even the basic truths in your Bible..

As Jesus might say, --If you would remove the planks from your own
eyes, you could see the truth I have been telling you about.

Originally posted by galveston75
Please in your opinion what does the scripture mean that says FEW will be the ones gettting thru the narrow gate to life or with having God's approval to live? Any clue at all?

Yes actually I do have "any clue at all", oh wise and knowledgeable one. I know one thing for absolute certain; it doesn't mean it's the "Jehovah's Witnesses".

And actually the scripture says: "straight is the gate and narrow is the way". Not narrow is the gate - which is a common error. Your view of 'narrowness' in this context, defines your adherence to the belief that JWs have sole access to this life you talk about - you are wrong, the gate is straight - as in simple, straight-forward and without cost. Narrow refers to the path of following Jesus not some archangel called Abaddon!

Matt: 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (no doubt your translation from robbie's 'original greek' will say whatever you want it to)

So if you want to get condescending about your organisations self-proclaimed position as the chosen few, please try to be at least accurate with scripture and since the Abaddon is Jesus debacle in the other thread please don't even think of lecturing me about Christianity. Thanks.

Originally posted by divegeester
Yes actually I do have [b]"any clue at all", oh wise and knowledgeable one. I know one thing for absolute certain; it doesn't mean it's the "Jehovah's Witnesses".

And actually the scripture says: "straight is the gate and narrow is the way". Not narrow is the gate - which is a common error. Your view of 'narrowness' in this context, defi ...[text shortened]... other thread please don't even think of lecturing me about Christianity. Thanks.[/b]

Matthew 7:13-14
Common English Bible (CEB)
Narrow gate
13 “Go in through the narrow gate. The gate that leads to destruction is broad and the road wide, so many people enter through it. 14 But the gate that leads to life is narrow and the road difficult, so few people find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
New Life Version (NLV)
Jesus Teaches about Two Roads
13 “Go in through the narrow door. The door is wide and the road is easy that leads to hell. Many people are going through that door. 14 But the door is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life that lasts forever. Few people are finding it.

Matthew 7:13-14
Amplified Bible (AMP)
13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.
14 But the gate is narrow (contracted [a]by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
Darby Translation (DARBY)
13Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who enter in through it.
14For narrow the gate and straitened the way that leads to life, and they are few who find it.


What were you saying about the GATE? Do you need more of this scripture pasted or is this enough?

Originally posted by galveston75
Matthew 7:13-14
Common English Bible (CEB)
Narrow gate
13 “Go in through the narrow gate. The gate that leads to destruction is broad and the road wide, so many people enter through it. 14 But the gate that leads to life is narrow and the road difficult, so few people find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
New Life Version (NLV)
Jesus Teaches about Two Roads ...[text shortened]... hat were you saying about the GATE? Do you need more of this scripture pasted or is this enough?

I do not know what is the point you are trying to make by Matthew 7:13-14

The final scene of the salvation of mankind shows a number which no man could count:

"After these things I saw, and behold, [there was] a great multitude which no one could number, out of every nation and [all] tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and palm branches in their hands.

And they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb." (Rev. 7:9,10)

This huge impossible to count group of save human beings here are from the four corners of the globe. They come out of all the tribulation of all ages from the creation of man until the eternal reign of Christ -

"These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Because of this they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits upon the throne will tabernacle over them." (Rev. 7:14b,15)

But nothing about this scene negates Christ's teaching that the gate is narrow to "life":

"... narrow is the gate and constricted in the way that leads to life, and few are those who find it."

For no one who goes into eternity and dwells in the temple of God will do so through his or her own Adamic life. It is Christ's dynamic process of regeneration, sanctification, transformation, building up together in love and glorfication which will bring them in. The old soul life will indeed be "destroyed".

So all who seek to enter into divine life must deny themselves in order to live through Jesus Christ. That is a narrow way. But God is able with the time He has control over, to bring a numberless multitude through.

There is really no contradiction between Mattew 7:13,14 and the passages which portray a final great number of people brought into Christ's salvation.

Before the age of eternity begins there is the millennial kingdom of one thousand years. And we know that the number of saints rewarded will be not as large as the number of saints who believed. And to a great degree the Gospel of Matthew is about that manifestation of "the kingdom of the heavens" during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.

"Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does thewill of My Father who is in the heavens." (Matt. 7:21).

This restrictive passage is about the receiving of reward and not about the gift of eternal life and eternal redemption.

Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved, believing in the heart that God reaised Jesus from the dead. That is the apostolic garuantee.

"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart thast God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)

Whoever calls "Lord Jesus" and believes in the heart that God has raised Him from the dead, will be saved as to eternal redemption. They will never perish.

But will all who call "Lord Jesus" receive the reward of reigning with Christ in the millennial manifestation of the KINGDOM of the heavens ? Not necessarily because the issue there is having done the will of the Father. The issue there is not simply having believed and been forgiven forever. The issue of the 1,000 year kingdom is reward for not only being forgiven but being conformed in living so as to do the Father's will.

For that, once become a disciple, we are exhorted "Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter through it.

Because narrow is the gate and contricted is the way that leads to life, and few are those who find it."

Therefore many who believed unto eternal redemption, but assumed that they could afford not to be conformed to the image of Christ, will not participate in the reward of that divine life during the millennial kingdom.

And to cut this post short, this is in complete agreement with the Apostle Paul saying that some Christians will lose the reward but still be saved yet so as through fire:

"The work of each will become manifested; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.

If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will saved ... HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED ... HE HIMSELF WILL ... BE ... SAVED .. YET so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15 my repetition and emphasis)

Here the passage is about receiving REWARD. And many will lose the REWARD of the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens because of inferior works. But they themselves will be saved yet so as through the fire of this examination.

In 1,000 years ALL will learn to pass through the narrow gate and all will be conformed to the image of God's Son - (Rom. 8:28,29)

You will not be able to refute me because your Watchtower teaching is based on great ignorance of the Word of God.

Originally posted by galveston75
Matthew 7:13-14
Common English Bible (CEB)
Narrow gate
13 “Go in through the narrow gate. The gate that leads to destruction is broad and the road wide, so many people enter through it. 14 But the gate that leads to life is narrow and the road difficult, so few people find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
New Life Version (NLV)
Jesus Teaches about Two Roads ...[text shortened]... hat were you saying about the GATE? Do you need more of this scripture pasted or is this enough?

Stick to the 'straight and narrow' - heard that phrase before?

Edit: accepted that that there are different translations. More reason to look for the spirit of the meaning.

Originally posted by divegeester
Stick to the 'straight and narrow' - heard that phrase before?

Edit: accepted that that there are different translations. More reason to look for the spirit of the meaning.

Exactly. The meaning here is this narrow gate presents how hard it will be to gain life by getting thru it. It will be a struggle and not one that many will accomplish. But connecting this thought to the scripture that says that MANY, not just a few, will call on his name but the MANY will not be accepted by Jesus is the point I'm making.
So if the MANY or most will not be gaining life by getting thru this gate then that would clearly imply that only a few would get thru this gate.

Do you get this point of this scripture that is in your Bible?

So to say that any smaller group that says they have the truth and are God's people is wrong because "that's not what the world believes hence you are out numbered and that makes you wrong" would be a foolish statement to say, don't you think?