Originally posted by Grampy BobbyMy post above was not in the slightest bit "emotional" although you will perhaps try to sidestep the point I made by attributing my criticism to some alleged personal weakness on my part - as is your wont - rather than address the point. You have no "rational" evidence that my non-Christian neighbours, for example, have no "human spirit".
And the rational [rather than an emotional] basis of these conclusions?
What you do have ~ indeed, all that you have ~ is your own certainty that you are 'right' and people who have a different set of superstitions from you are 'wrong'. Without the circular logic that your certainty is based on, you have no "evidence".
If anything here has an "emotional" underpinning, then it is your inclination to dehumanize people ~ many billions of whom probably have a more generous, curious and less impaired "human spirit" than you.
Regardless of whether it's merely the more or less random upshot of you ladling out some pompous word salad, that you would hijack and distort the meaning of the words "human spirit" and then use them in such a way so that they do not apply to billions and billions of fellow humans is the rhetorical trick of a self-aggrandizing fundamentalist ideologue.
I have started a separate thread to discuss your contention that the human spirit is only "acquired" by Christians. I am curious to find out whether it is a conventional and widely-held Christian doctrine or whether your belief in this matter is simply some personal fanaticism on your part.
In context these passages compare an unbeliever [human body and soul] with a believer [human body, soul and spirit]:
"1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." There is a unique learning process that God gives every believer in order to understand truth, and we derive it from this passage. This has been called the grace learning spiral because it is based on grace. God gives this ability to every believer at the instant of salvation, it comes with the human spirit, and in the church age it is energized by the Holy Spirit. It is true for every believer, so your ability to learn the Word is not based upon your education, it is not based upon IQ, it is not based upon any other human factor, it is based upon this principle. This mechanic is true for every believer and we have to understand this. Even though you may find something difficult to understand today, that is okay. After you hear it ten or fifteen or twenty times it will become clear to you. This doesn’t mean that every doctrine is instantly clear in its totality to you as soon as you hear it. We can understand advanced doctrine but we have to build the basics first and build upon that line upon line, precept upon precept.
1 Corinthians 2:15 NASB “But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.” Some people get into a trap here because they think that the “all things” refers to all things in life, every issue faced in life, that no matter how difficult the circumstances they are going to be able to understand what God’s will is here. That is not what this is saying. Remember, going back to v. 9, that “all things” refers to what has been revealed in Scripture. So this verse says, “he who is spiritual,” i.e. he who is regenerate, “appraises all things”—appraises the Scripture. The word translated “appraise” is the Greek word ANAKRINO [a)nakrinw], and it means to examine a witness, to interrogate, or to determine the meaning of something. So we could translate that, “He who is spiritual,” i.e. the regenerate man instead of the unregenerate man, “is able to determine the meaning of Scripture.” That fits the context. Then it goes on to say, “yet he [in contrast] is appraised [understood, or the meaning of himself] is not understood by any man.” In other words, the unbeliever is not going to be able to understand the believer. The believer is always going to be an enigma at some level to the unbeliever."
http://www.divineviewpoint.com/sane/dbm/setup/1Corinth/1Cor015.htm
Originally posted by FMFIt's your soul.....
My post above was not in the slightest bit "emotional" although you will perhaps try to sidestep the point I made by attributing my criticism to some alleged personal weakness on my part - as is your wont - rather than address the point. You have no "rational" evidence that my non-Christian neighbours, for example, have no "human spirit".
What you do have ~ ...[text shortened]... llions of fellow humans is the rhetorical trick of a self-aggrandizing fundamentalist ideologue.
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Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
So this verse says, “he who is spiritual,” i.e. he who is regenerate, “appraises all things”—appraises the Scripture. The word translated “appraise” is the Greek word ANAKRINO [a)nakrinw], and it means to examine a witness, to interrogate, or to determine the meaning of something. So we could translate that, “He who is spiritual,” i.e. the regenerate man instead of the unregenerate man, “is able to determine the meaning of Scripture.”
I have highlighted some parts for emphasis -
1.) “he who is spiritual,” i.e. he who is regenerate, “appraises all things”—appraises the Scripture.
2.) “He who is spiritual,” i.e. the regenerate man instead of the unregenerate man,
The unfortunate fact of the matter is that even a regenerated Christian may not walk so as to be spiritual in their practical living. He should grow so as to be spiritual but is stunted and not very spiritual even though he may be born again.
This has to be the case or Paul would not be telling some in the church in Corinth that they are not spiritual.
"And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to fleshy, as to infants in Christ." (1 Cor. 3:1)
You see here that some of these Corinthians WERE in Christ. But they were "infants in Christ". This means they were immature spiritually. They were born again but their growth in Christ was stunted and they remained "infants in Christ".
What I am saying is the infants in Christ here were born again, ie. were regenerated. Yet Paul says he could not speak to them as spiritual men.
Of course what OUGHT to be and what is IDLE is that every man who is regenerated would grow normally. But what is TYPICAL is that some after too long a time, remain infants in Christ and are not practically spiritual.
Who is the "you" in this sentence?
"And I, BROTHERS, was not able to speak to YOU as to spiritual men, but as to fleshy, as to infants in Christ." (3:1)
The "you" there are the Christian BROTHERS. That means they are men and women who have been regenerated. They are constituents of "the church which is in Corinth" (1:1). They were born again.
They are the "brothers" not because they are all of the male sex. Rather they are "brothers" in the sense that they SHARE the same divine life of Christ. They have the life of Christ which unites them into the Christian brotherhood.
Yet some of the "brothers" could not yet take more solid spiritual food. The Apostle could only feed them with the "milk" .
"I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for you were not yet able to receive it. But neither yet now are you able." (3:1)
Some regenerated Christian brothers in the church in Corinth were only able to receive the most elementary spiritual food - "milk". By this time they should have grown more spiritually and have been able to take something more solid of spiritual instruction. But their growth is retarded and arrested - spiritually.
In his disappointment Paul rebukes them ( yet in love) as being "still fleshly" -
"For you [Christian brothers] are still fleshly." (v.3).
That is "fleshly" INSTEAD of "spiritual". The "spiritual", I think, has to be regarded in a somewhat relative sense. Though they are fleshly, they are more spiritual than someone who has never been born again. In that relative sense, they are spiritual.
But in another sense they are retarded and Paul says that in their practical daily church living they are fleshly and not spiritual and he cannot speak to them as spiritual.
Originally posted by sonship"sonship, the preponderance of contributors to this spirituality forum are self professed agnostics or atheists. Salvation is the only information an unbeliever can understand in the Word of God: No frame of reference or human spirit." (Page 7)
[quote] So this verse says, [b] “he who is spiritual,” i.e. he who is regenerate, “appraises all things”—appraises the Scripture. The word translated “appraise” is the Greek word ANAKRINO [a)nakrinw], and it means to examine a witness, to interrogate, or to determine the meaning of something. So we could translate that, “He who is spiritual,” i.e. ...[text shortened]... daily church living they are fleshly and not spiritual and he cannot speak to them as spiritual.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyCome on Grampy. Are you just going to act like a tape recorded message?
"sonship, the preponderance of contributors to this spirituality forum are self professed agnostics or atheists. Salvation is the only information an unbeliever can understand in the Word of God: No frame of reference or human spirit." (Page 7)
Please look carefully at the post on First Corinthians' "spiritual men" verses. This can be related to the subject of the ancient history of Satan.
Originally posted by sonship"Salvation is the only information an unbeliever can understand in the Word of God: No frame of reference or human spirit." Answering honest questions and witnessing as opportunities are presented with accurate information are the issues.
Come on Grampy. Are you just going to act like a tape recorded message?
Please look carefully at the post on First Corinthians' [b]"spiritual men" verses. This can be related to the subject of the ancient history of Satan.[/b]
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyIn all my years of being both a Christian and a non-Christian, I have never encountered a Christian who believed that atheists, agnostics and non-Christians have "no human spirit". Not once. You are the first. sonship and lemon lime don't seem to accept your assertion and they are fellow Christians. Do you believe that what you are saying is a "Christian" doctrine that is subscribed to by Christians generally? Or have you misused some words and are now unwilling to backtrack and make the correction?
"Salvation is the only information an unbeliever can understand in the Word of God: No frame of reference or human spirit." Answering honest questions and witnessing as opportunities are presented with accurate information are the issues.
Originally posted by FMFWell I, too, learn new information on aspects of old and new topics of interest daily; unlearning is often required.
In all my years of being both a Christian and a non-Christian, I have never encountered a Christian who believed that atheists, agnostics and non-Christians have "no human spirit". Not once. You are the first. sonship and lemon lime don't seem to accept your assertion and they are fellow Christians. Do you believe that what you are saying is a "Christian" doctri ...[text shortened]... ally? Or have you misused some words and are now unwilling to backtrack and make the correction?
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyBut you are the only Christian I can ever recall making the claim that you're making, and at least two of your fellow Christians seem to have baulked at what you've said. Perhaps you are simply putting forward a personal opinion that uses a distorted definition?
Well I, too, learn new information on aspects of old and new topics of interest daily; unlearning is often required.
Originally posted by FMFThere have often been surprises in my experience learning from pastors who teach accurately from the original languages of scripture. Absolute truths revealed in the Word of God trump all personal speculations and majority opinions in value.
But you are the only Christian I can ever recall making the claim that you're making, and at least two of your fellow Christians seem to have baulked at what you've said. Perhaps you are simply putting forward a personal opinion that uses a distorted definition?
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyDo you advise all the people you are addressing here to bear in mind that your assertions about most human beings having "no human spirit" may also be mere "speculations" on your part?
There have often been surprises in my experience learning from pastors who teach accurately from the original languages of scripture. Absolute truths revealed in the Word of God trump all personal speculations and majority opinions in value.
Originally posted by sonshipTypo Correction: "idle" should be "ideal".
] Of course what OUGHT to be and what is IDEAL [edited] is that every man who is regenerated would grow normally. But what is TYPICAL is that some after too long a time, remain infants in Christ and are not practically spiritual.
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