Originally posted by TheSkipperDo I need to know Job's sin? Who said what happened to him had
Ok...but what was Job's sin? What did Abraham do that was so bad that God needed to convince him that he needs to sacrifice his own son; only to then tell him it was all a big mind game?
If god stuck to killing evil people I could buy your story but it seems he liked to screw around with people that were trying to honestly do their best. It is a litt both Job and satan come off looking much better than God...at least in my view.
TheSkipper
anything to do with his sin? Who said Abraham did anything that
was bad or good that God needed to convince him he needed to
sacrifice his son, and then to be told not to?
You seem to think that God's actions are not justified just by the
way you frame your questions. God created the universe as a very
good thing, and from there Satan and his followers as well as those
of like mind have rebelled against God. That process of rebellion
has brought about death in all human life and brought down curses
upon this planet.
As far as God being taunted by Satan, no it did not happen that way.
You think Satan came off better than God did, so Satan killing Job's
family and attacking Job's health because he could, is better than what
God did? Satan did not have to attack Job, but he did when given the
chance. How is that better than what God did? God created Job, God
gave Job everything Job owned, from his health to his family, and
those gifts were not Job's to keep for as long as Job wills, but as
God does.
Your life, your property, your loved ones are not 'yours' apart from
God, there is nothing you have God has not seen fit to give you! Do
you give God thanks, are you thankful, or instead of being grateful to
God, do you behave as it is yours, as if you are in control of the
universe and God has no right or say over your life? If you cannot
even have a thankful heart for what you have been given, what else
is there about your heart that is against the giver of life?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI will not have time to respond to this fully until Monday but until then...The way i read the text what happened to Job was God's idea.
Do I need to know Job's sin? Who said what happened to him had
anything to do with his sin? Who said Abraham did anything that
was bad or good that God needed to convince him he needed to
sacrifice his son, and then to be told not to?
You seem to think that God's actions are not justified just by the
way you frame your questions. God created the univ ...[text shortened]... een given, what else
is there about your heart that is against the giver of life?
Kelly
"I make weal and create woe"
He sure does.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by TheSkipperWhere does it say, God wanted Job hurt? Did God tell Satan to attack
I will not have time to respond to this fully until Monday but until then...The way i read the text what happened to Job was God's idea.
"I make weal and create woe"
He sure does.
TheSkipper
Job? God said look at Job, that does not translate in my mind that
Satan should then attack Job; you see that in the text? God knew
Satan's intent, and drew boundaries of protection around Job, I don't
see that as wanting Job hurt, but protected. You honestly believe
that Satan is being shown in a better light here than God? I don't
see it that way, God protected and blessed Job in the story he did
not tell Satan to attack, he did not tell Satan to do what he did those
were all Satan's ideas and motivations.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayJob 1:9-12
Where does it say, God wanted Job hurt? Did God tell Satan to attack
Job? God said look at Job, that does not translate in my mind that
Satan should then attack Job; you see that in the text? God knew
Satan's intent, and drew boundaries of protection around Job, I don't
see that as wanting Job hurt, but protected. You honestly believe
that Satan is bei ...[text shortened]... e did not tell Satan to do what he did those
were all Satan's ideas and motivations.
Kelly
So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?”
“Have you not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land”
“But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all the he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
So God continued to protect Job but left Job’s family to be dealt with by Satan. Well gee isn’t that great? You will forgive me if I’m not overwhelmed with joy by God’s behavior here.
What is the lesson of this story if not: “don’t be blameless or God and Satan may fight over you and God will not hesitate to hang your entire family out to dry just to prove a point.” The fact that Job was not killed is small consolation in my book.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by TheSkipperI'm not asking you to be overwhelmed about anything. What has
Job 1:9-12
So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?”
“Have you not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land”
“But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all the he has, and he will surel ...[text shortened]... prove a point.” The fact that Job was not killed is small consolation in my book.
TheSkipper
changed, or did I say something that was error to you? Did God tell
Satan to attack Job? Wasn't God protecting Job before, during, and
after this? There is an appointed time for us all to die, if it were up
to Satan we'd all be dead strait away, but it isn't up to Satan. I'm
still waiting for you to tell me how Satan looks better here than
God does, will that post be coming soon?
The lesson about death is, that we are all going to die, what happens
here is another matter. The lesson about your family you seem to
be over looking is that they too are all going to die, it does not matter
if they are righteous or not, you and I are going to die, it doesn't
matter if we are righteous or not, being righteous or not does not
add to or take away from the fact that we are all going to die at some
point in time.
You want a lesson, from Job, be grateful for what you have while
you have it, be grateful for what you had after it is gone, nothing in
this life is yours it all belongs to another. You didn’t create the
universe, you don’t hold it together, you don’t have the power
to protect your life or that of your family, you cannot stop death.
The is an example of why people view God differently, some
see him as the bad guy and are not grateful to Him for all the
many blessing God has granted us and are pissed at Him, because
they don’t like it that they are not in charge of the universe. While
others see the guilt in their lives and know they need Him, and
they are received by God in God’s grace and mercy He has
given to us through Jesus Christ. Same God, just different
perspectives and motivating factors at play while looking at Him.
Kelly
Originally posted by dj2beckerDidn't God supposedly already know whether Abraham would be obedient or not? He's omniscient right?
I think God tested Abraham to see what was important to him. I must agree from a human perspective it is indeed a very difficult test. But God wanted to see whether Abraham would be obedient, whether he loved God so much and trusted him so much that he would be prepared to sacrifice even his own son.
As with Job, I think that again is something very di ...[text shortened]... s us in the "fire" in order to 'burn out' the impurities in us as well as to test our faith.
Originally posted by lucifershammerThe man gave permission for the surgeon to do so.
Why is it okay for a surgeon to cut a man's chest open and take a knife to his heart but not okay for you and me (or maybe just me - I don't know you're not a cardiac surgeon!) to do the same?
The surgeon knows what he's doing; we don't.
Originally posted by lucifershammerNo. Neither do I.
Does he require consent in an emergency/casualty situation?
In any case, you're stretching the analogy - I think you already got the point. The analogy was brought up as the answer to your question about why we can't go around killing people.
Note about analogies - they are brought up to compare a specific aspect of two situations; not to be stretched indiscriminately to compare other aspects.
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Originally posted by AThousandYoungYes. God did know. But I don't think it means that God should not put His children to the test, even if it is just so that His children can see what is in their own heart.
Didn't God supposedly already know whether Abraham would be obedient or not? He's omniscient right?
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Originally posted by AThousandYoungI don't think God's omniscience implies that human's should not excercise free-will. I think even if God knew what would have happened, he gave Abraham the ability to excercise his free-will so that God could see that Abraham would indeed do as God had thought he would.
This is not consistent with what you wrote before. You wrote But God wanted to see....
Originally posted by dj2beckerGod, being omniscient, knows all the knowable. He knew all eventualities, prior to the act of creation. He knew causes and effects, outcomes and potential outcomes. He knew what could have happened that did not, as well as what would have happened in all situations, given any changes in any circumstances.
I don't think God's omniscience implies that human's should not excercise free-will. I think even if God knew what would have happened, he gave Abraham the ability to excercise his free-will so that God could see that Abraham would indeed do as God had thought he would.
Want to know what would have happened if you had taken a job offer instead of declining it? He knows.
What if you would have gone to such-and-such school, had different parents, learned how to play the kazoo, been a girl instead of a boy or etc.? He knows.
God certainly knew how Abraham was going to respond, in addition to Job, as well as his so-called friends. He knows the end from the beginning, and nothing is hidden from His sight.
No "if" is unknown. Omni is all, and the Alpha and the Omega (the Beginning and the End) knew it all before it ever began to unfold. He is not surprised by anything that happens, does not need to amend His plan, His stance or policy, is not undone by any loopholes--- none exist.
Hey, Kelly, sorry for the delay in response.
Before I get into this I would like to clear the air of any anger or misunderstanding that may have resulted from what I now see as reckless language with regards to God. I may be missing the tone of your posts but it seems you are angry over the things I have said (or perhaps more specifically the WAY I said those things) and I want to apologize for not choosing my words more carefully. I discuss these issues in real life with my friends quite often and we have developed a fairly informal tone that does not translate well in my posts.
To the extent you found my posts insulting to you and/or God I cry your mercy. I have great respect for both you and God and certainly do not want to insult you and just because my relationship with God happens to be rather complex at the moment this is hardly your concern and I did not mean to drag you into my drama.
Ok, on with the insulting, disrespectful drivel you have come to know me for (with hopefully more civility)!! 😉
You seem to think that God's actions are not justified just by the
way you frame your questions. God created the universe as a very
good thing, and from there Satan and his followers as well as those
of like mind have rebelled against God. That process of rebellion
has brought about death in all human life and brought down curses
upon this planet.
You seem to suggest here that Satan is out of God’s control which is completely at odds with how I view both God and Satan. Unless I want to become a polytheist (which I don’t, I have enough trouble with one god) I must believe that Satan is an agent of God not a divine power opposed to God...ya dig? For instance, you mention that God created the universe; is not Satan a part of the universe? If Satan is merely another creation of God’s then he was created for a purpose thus rendering Satan a tool belonging to God. So everything that Satan does, God is responsible for just as everything your hammer does, you are responsible for. (Including hitting me with it, so don’t get any ideas.) 😉
Further, you also refer to the so called fall of man and seem to take for granted that Satan had anything to do with it. I’m not so sure. The infamous serpent that convinces Eve to eat the forbidden fruit is never in any of my studies referred to by the author as Satan or anything other than your run of the mill talking snake. Remember that after the fall and God started cursing everything in sight he also cursed snakes, now why would he do that if the entity responsible were not a snake at all but rather what amounts to a guy in a snake suit. On the other hand he also cursed the ground and I can’t see for the life of me what it did that was so bad so perhaps we are not talking punitative curses here but simply poor aim on God’s part…they were his first curses after all. (That was a joke, BTW)
As far as God being taunted by Satan, no it did not happen that way.
You think Satan came off better than God did, so Satan killing Job's
family and attacking Job's health because he could, is better than what
God did? Satan did not have to attack Job, but he did when given the
chance. How is that better than what God did? God created Job, God
gave Job everything Job owned, from his health to his family, and
those gifts were not Job's to keep for as long as Job wills, but as
God does.
Perhaps you are right, in verse eight of the first chapter it seems God begins taunting Satan. However, as I asserted earlier in verses 9 thru 11 Satan definitely retaliates with a taunt of his own. Also, please consider the eleventh verse in the first chapter and the fifth verse in the second chapter: “But stretch out your hand now” says Satan. Almost as if to say “allow me to…” Interesting, no?
Now you can see why I said, perhaps recklessly, that Satan and Job come out of the story looking better than God. Satan, at least in my reading of the scripture, was simply doing what God wanted him to do and ultimately what Satan always desires to do.
With regards to your above comments regarding Job’s possessions, family and health, I must admit that this vexes me somewhat. For I do believe that everything we have, everything we love and everything we are, is ultimately due to the grace of God. This story is in a very real sense a manifestation of the euphemism “The Lord giveth and he taketh away”. So ultimately, my concern has nothing to do with whether God has the power to do these things or even whether he has the right to do these things. My concern as I hope was evident from the beginning is WHY did God do these things, if we can answer that we can then gain real insight into who God is. Simply saying “God works in mysterious ways” teaches us nothing. To the extent there is insight into God’s character contained in the pages of Job I consider it my duty and my pleasure to find it.
Your life, your property, your loved ones are not 'yours' apart from
God, there is nothing you have God has not seen fit to give you! Do
you give God thanks, are you thankful, or instead of being grateful to
God, do you behave as it is yours, as if you are in control of the
universe and God has no right or say over your life? If you cannot
even have a thankful heart for what you have been given, what else
is there about your heart that is against the giver of life?
First of all I resent the implication that I am not thankful. I have more to be thankful for than you could possibly imagine and both God and I are well aware of that fact. However, I’m chalking the above paragraph up to you being miffed about my reckless language in previous posts and I can understand your anger. Don’t you worry, God will deal with me in the end and I doubt he needs anybody’s help. 😉
In answer to your other questions I will again explain that I have no concern over the power of God to remove that which he has given, my concern has always been the why not the how, when or if. Are you starting to understand? I’m not interested in what God can do because there is nothing left to learn there; he can do anything. I’m very interested, however, in God’s motivations and in the story of Job I feel there is much to be learned about the nature of God and so far in my study it does not look very complimentary. I still have much to learn, however, and look forward to what comes next.
There is an appointed time for us all to die, if it were up
to Satan we'd all be dead strait away, but it isn't up to Satan.
The lesson about death is, that we are all going to die, what happens
here is another matter. The lesson about your family you seem to
be over looking is that they too are all going to die, it does not matter
if they are righteous or not, you and I are going to die, it doesn't
matter if we are righteous or not, being righteous or not does not
add to or take away from the fact that we are all going to die at some
point in time.
Yes, we are all going to die. However, before we do there are many lessons to be learned and mysteries to be solved. I for one will learn and know all I can rather than simply throwing up my hands and waiting for the inevitable. I may be reading your comments incorrectly but these statements seem so fatalistic that it makes me think you and I will never find common ground. There is a difference between accepting your eventual death and being so consumed by that acceptance that you have no concern for what happens prior to it.
To ask the question “Will Job’s family die?” is pointless, of course they will. Now, “Why did Job’s family die?” is extremely interesting and not easy to answer.
You want a lesson, from Job, be grateful for what you have while
you have it, be grateful for what you had after it is gone, nothing in
this life is yours it all belongs to another. You didn’t create the
universe, you don’t hold it together, you don’t have the power
to protect your life or that of your family, you cannot stop death.
Good grief! You are starting to scare me. I’m not accusing you of anything but it is this kind of thinking that leads parents to not take their sick kids to the doctor. Knowing that you are not responsible for the people and things in your life does not mean you don’t care about them.
I’m simply making the not so radical assumption that Job loved his family and appreciated his Oxen and workers. I’m also assuming that God knew very well who and what Job loved and cared for and it is because of this knowledge that I want know WHY. Why, why, why, why, why!! The answer would be simple and the question boring if I thought for a second that God did not know that Job cared for and loved the things he allowed Satan to destroy.
In conclusion, I want to remind you that I’m still learning about God, I know it will come as a complete shock to you but I have not yet understood all of God’s motivations or intentions. 😉 That is not to say I have given up, far from it, I’m as motivated to discover the truth of God as I ever have been. My preliminary conclusions concerning the story of Job are drown from my equally preliminary conclusions form the creation sequence which is simply God, in addition to being benevolent, merciful etc etc is evil. I know that sounds pretty crazy, but it is the only conclusion that seems reasonable AT THIS TIME. The search goes on!
Be well,
TheSkipper
Originally posted by TheSkipperNot angry, not even a little upset, sorry I came off like that.
Hey, Kelly, sorry for the delay in response.
Before I get into this I would like to clear the air of any anger or misunderstanding that may have resulted from what I now see as reckless language with regards to God. I may be missing the tone of your posts but it seems you are angry over the things I have said (or perhaps more specifically the WAY I sa ...[text shortened]... sion that seems reasonable AT THIS TIME. The search goes on!
Be well,
TheSkipper
I only read the first line of your post and wanted to stop right away
and let you know, the tone was simply the way I wrote it, it had
nothing and I repeat nothing to do with my feelings at all. It was
simply a matter of fact as I was writing it to me, but I can see how it
could come off that way now that I've been removed from it for a
little while. Sorry!
I'll start reading the rest of your post now.
Kelly
Originally posted by TheSkipperMan there is a lot to cover; I'm going to have to break up my replies
Hey, Kelly, sorry for the delay in response.
Before I get into this I would like to clear the air of any anger or misunderstanding that may have resulted from what I now see as reckless language with regards to God. I may be missing the tone of your posts but it seems you are angry over the things I have said (or perhaps more specifically the WAY I sa ...[text shortened]... sion that seems reasonable AT THIS TIME. The search goes on!
Be well,
TheSkipper
to you.
I'll just say a couple of things as a foundational to all my beliefs about
God, and that is, He does not wish us harm, rather good. God is Just
and Holy too, and so will not bless sin and will punish it to the fullest
extent if needs be. I also believe Satan comes with no other reasons
than to kill, steal, destroy, and he is the father of lies.
Like many discussions I'm in on this site, free will does remain
something that I think people simply just don't buy into when it
comes to both man and Satan and the forces that follow him. If God
created robots no issues, but allowing us to behave as we will means
that bad things will happen. If God puts a regulator on our will, it isn't
free now is it? I’m not sure what kind of eternal Kingdom God is
molding where He does not step on our will, but I’m sure it will
be better than any that could have come about where he did regulate
our ability to make a choice.
Kelly