22 Feb 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerIf Abraham's actions were already known, the outcome is predetermined. If it is predetermined, there can be no suich thing as free-will. It had to happen the way god knew it would. If god is omniscient, then free-will is an illusion.
I don't think God's omniscience implies that human's should not excercise free-will. I think even if God knew what would have happened, he gave Abraham the ability to excercise his free-will so that God could see that Abraham would indeed do as God had thought he would.
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22 Feb 06
1 edit
Originally posted by StarrmanGod's seeing into the future did not deprive Abraham of his free-will.
If Abraham's actions were already known, the outcome is predetermined. If it is predetermined, there can be no suich thing as free-will. It had to happen the way god knew it would. If god is omniscient, then free-will is an illusion.
How does God's knowing the future deprive you of your free-will?
23 Feb 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThis was a good post! This also turns away, the complaint that we
God, being omniscient, knows all the knowable. He knew all eventualities, prior to the act of creation. He knew causes and effects, outcomes and potential outcomes. He knew what could have happened that did not, as well as what would have happened in all situations, given any changes in any circumstances.
Want to know what would have happened if you ha ...[text shortened]... ot need to amend His plan, His stance or policy, is not undone by any loopholes--- none exist.
are simply playing out our parts in a book already written. It isn't
that God has seen who was going to come to him, and all others
are simply not part of the group going to be saved, but instead
as things play out, God knows as things stand now, how it will play
out. Thus, when God calls out, who so ever will come to Him will
be saved, it is in deed a call to turn those that are not saved to
come to God. From there He knows they will all be saved who come
to Him through Jesus Christ our Lord. There could be no such thing
as repent if we are simply playing out our parts in a story already
written.
Kelly
26 Feb 06
Originally posted by TheSkipperYou seem to suggest here that Satan is out of God’s control which is completely at odds with how I view both God and Satan. Unless I want to become a polytheist (which I don’t, I have enough trouble with one god) I must believe that Satan is an agent of God not a divine power opposed to God...ya dig? For instance, you mention that God created the universe; is not Satan a part of the universe? If Satan is merely another creation of God’s then he was created for a purpose thus rendering Satan a tool belonging to God. So everything that Satan does, God is responsible for just as everything your hammer does, you are responsible for. (Including hitting me with it, so don’t get any ideas.) 😉
Hey, Kelly, sorry for the delay in response.
Before I get into this I would like to clear the air of any anger or misunderstanding that may have resulted from what I now see as reckless language with regards to God. I may be missing the tone of your posts but it seems you are angry over the things I have said (or perhaps more specifically the WAY I sa ...[text shortened]... sion that seems reasonable AT THIS TIME. The search goes on!
Be well,
TheSkipper
I’m not all suggesting that Satan is out of God’s control, nor did I say
Satan was in God’s control. Scripture says that God works all things to
the good to those that love God and are called according to God’s
purposes. Satan can do what Satan wants, just as you and I can within
the boundaries we find ourselves in. For example I cannot fly like a
bird even though I believe it would be handy from time to time, I
cannot jump to the moon and hang out there for while and so on. The
oceans waves come up crashing on the beaches and they recede, and
the same with Satan he has limits to His abilities and influence. God
again did not tell Satan to attack all that Job had or Job’s family,
Satan did that, we can stumble across someone’s wallet with all their
money in it, we can find them or return it, our actions and Satan’s will
define what we are, in our case either an honest person or selfish one
by how we treat what was put in front of us and under our power. As
the scripture teaches, even a child is known by their actions.
So we see God protecting Job, before, during, and after and Satan
attacked Job when given the chance, how does Satan look better to
you than God?
Kelly
02 Mar 06
Originally posted by TheSkipperThe answer to your question is that Justice is an essential attribute of God, he must punish sin. Your "Liberal theology" obviously does not allow you to believe in sin or punishment. If you studied the Bible a little more closely you would find that the OT, taken literally, as it was intended, is perfectly compatible with the NT which is why the OT is repeatedly quoted and expounded in the NT. You will also find that in both testaments God is both loving and wrathful. You should study Christianity before you attempt to judge it.
How does the perception of a wrathful, OT God align with the Christian assertion of a loving God?
I have been thinking about this one for years and while my liberal theology allows me the freedom to simply dismiss much of the OT as allegorical and the ravings of lunatics I know that many of you are unwilling to do that. So how do you answer the question?
TheSkipper
02 Mar 06
4 edits
Originally posted by princeoforangethe OT, taken literally, as it was intended
The answer to your question is that Justice is an essential attribute of God, he must punish sin. Your "Liberal theology" obviously does not allow you to believe in sin or punishment. If you studied the Bible a little more closely you would find that the OT, taken literally, as it was intended, is perfectly compatible with the NT which is why the OT ...[text shortened]... od is both loving and wrathful. You should study Christianity before you attempt to judge it.
Not. (Unless you really think that God has feet, and a face and a backside; and the sun revolves around the earth.) The Hebrew is full of symbols and metaphors and multiple meanings, and puns and number symbolism.
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You will also find that in both testaments God is both loving and wrathful.
If you mean that the scriptures (with anthropomorphic symbolism) ascribe both anger and love to God, yes. But—
I just did a quick search, and could not find one verse that says God is loving. Many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures refer to God’s “steadfast-love” chesed.* In the First Letter of John in the NT, it actually says “God is love.” That has always seemed a bolder statement to me.
The only verse in the Hebrew Scriptures that says God is “wrathful” is: Nahum 1:2—“A jealous and avenging God is YHVH, YHVH is avenging and wrathful; YHVH takes vengeance on his adversaries and rages against his enemies.” NRSV translates chemah as “wrathful,” and KJV translates it as “furious” here, although chemah is really a noun. It’s root means “hot.” It can be translated as anger, indignation, heat, poison.
Other Hebrew words that can be translated as wrath are qesep, anger or displeasure; charon, from chara, to burn or be kindled; r’gez, rage, from a root meaning to tremble or quake; anep, to be angry or displeased; za’am, anger or indignation.
There are lots of verses in the Hebrew Scriptures where words for wrath or anger refer to God or YHVH (“Lord” ). Generally, I would say that while the Hebrew Scriptures speak of God becoming angry, it is a stretch to make anger or wrath a dominant character trait of God based on that single verse in Nahum.
The common Judaic view (when speaking of God anthropomorphically) is that the balancing characteristics of God are justice tzedeq, or judgment din, and compassion or mercy, rahamim, from rehem, womb, or chesed, loving kindness or “steadfast-love.”
The classic statement is Exodus 34: 6,7—
6 YHVH passed before him, and proclaimed, "YHVH, YHVH, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast-love and faithfulness, 7 keeping steadfast love chesed for the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, yet by no means clearing the guilty, but visiting the iniquity of the parents upon the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."
(Here, it is unlikely that the reference to “generations” is to be taken literally, but rather as a Hebrew metaphor of a common type, indicating the relative balance of God’s mercy versus God’s justice; this is also indicated by the doubling of YHVH, the name of God most associated with compassion and chesed--this, again, creates problems for me with the Nahum passage. A quick stab at a word-for-word translation of verse 7 is given below, to show the difficulty of the Hebrew.)
The phrase “merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast-love and faithfulness” is a formula repeated several times in the Hebrew Scriptures, and is considered an over-arching theme. That is, while God may become angry, wrath is not a principal character trait.
Again, all of this is in the context of speaking of God in anthropomorphic symbols—not my favorite tack.
* chesed is an attribute that seems to be (almost?) always attributed to God; whereas the common Hebrew word for love, ahavah, pertains generally to humans (and is attributed to YHVH in only 8 verses).
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Word-for-word translation of Exodus 34:7 (I have deliberately left out the punctuation that is added to translations, though not found in the original; and most Hebrew words have multiple options for translation)—
7: keeping steadfast-love (chesed) to thousands lifting guilt and rebellion and sin (hatah, missing the way) and making-innocent (or clearing) not will-he-make-innocent (clear) reckoning guilt fathers above sons and above son of sons above threes and fours.
02 Mar 06
Originally posted by TheSkipperI havn't read any responses, im too tired and I really dont feel like it.
How does the perception of a wrathful, OT God align with the Christian assertion of a loving God?
I have been thinking about this one for years and while my liberal theology allows me the freedom to simply dismiss much of the OT as allegorical and the ravings of lunatics I know that many of you are unwilling to do that. So how do you answer the question?
TheSkipper
That being said, here is how some make the connection. God never wanted to be the god of wrath. He wanted to love them, man was just too stupid. He corrected man's stupidity and man acted like an angered child and declared God evil. He's not evil, were (all of us, athests and relgious people) just stupid.
02 Mar 06
Addendum on Nahum:
Nahum 1:2 A jealous and avenging God is the LORD, the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and rages against his enemies. (NRSV).
Word-for-word rendering—
God (El) zealous and avenging YHVH avenging YHVH and owner/ruler/master (ba’al) [of] indignation/anger avenging YHVH to adversaries/rivals of him and keeping guard he/himself to enemies of him.
A traditional Jewish exegesis could very well read this verse as El—the name, or aspect, of God that captures attributes such as zealousness, vengeance and anger—avenging and guarding YHVH, the name, or aspect, of God that captures the attributes of chesed and rahamim.
Is God—in the anthropomorphic metaphors of the Hebrew text—a multiple personality? To be sure. Who isn’t? Nature religions have many gods to capture the “moods” of nature. Over the history of its evolution, Judaism folded them all into one God, and dealt with them in a variety of ways.
Nahum 1:3 reads—
Nahum 1:3 YHVH is slow to anger but great in power, and YHVH will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. (NRSV)
Another word-for-word rendering—
YHVH long/slow to be displeased/angered and great [in] substance clearing he will not clear* in stormwind and in storm way-of-him cloud dust feet-of-him.
* “Clearing, he will not clear”—This seems to be a formula phrase meaning something like forgiving, but not always and not all guilt. The JPS Tanach renders this verse, in part as “...great in forbearance...but does not remit all punishment.”