Spirituality
10 Mar 09
15 Mar 09
Originally posted by checkbaiterI do not know why this doctrine is so important to trinitarians, honestly checkbaiter my friend, I have thought of this for ages, why is it important for them to establish that Christ is God, hes a divine being, no doubt, he had a prehuman existence, no doubt, he, with God created the universe and all things in it, no doubt, but he is not God. The only course of thought left open to me is that it is a tradition of the Church that people will try to defend in the face of contrary evidence...I dunno....I wish i knew why this thing is so important to them. Anyhow thanks for the encouragement - regards Robbie.
Well done my friend...there is much more if need be, but I don't have the time right now...it is sad that Jesus Christ isn't given His rightful place as simply God's Son. It takes away from so much of His accomplishments. For example, when He was beaten, a trinitarian must ask himself "did He really feel the pain?" His suffering means so much more to me ...[text shortened]... .which brings up the question of who raised Him? If He is God, did He really die?,etc....🙂
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15 Mar 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI don't even believe He existed before His birth. He was divinely conceived, but no pre existance to my knowledge anyway. He was the promised seed since Genesis 3:15. Satan had been trying to destroy the bloodline ever since. Like the children murdered in Matt 2:16 and all through the OT.
I do not know why this doctrine is so important to trinitarians, honestly checkbaiter my friend, I have thought of this for ages, why is it important for them to establish that Christ is God, hes a divine being, no doubt, he had a prehuman existence, no doubt, he, with God created the universe and all things in it, no doubt, but he is not God. The o ...[text shortened]... ew why this thing is so important to them. Anyhow thanks for the encouragement - regards Robbie.
The trinity was formed in about 400 AD thanks to Constantine. The Christians at the time merged with Greek pagan beliefs under threat of persecution...I am not an expert in the field, but I can refer you to people that are....
15 Mar 09
7 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterYes, i have read many articles as to the historicity of the trinity and undoubtedly it is of Pagan origin. it is interesting to hear that you have different view of the Christ, I have always assumed that Christians who accept that he was the promised seed, as you state correctly, since the prophecy was uttered in the book of Genesis, and who acknowledge his divine conception should also accept his pre-human existence, but alas, this is an assumption and every day we are learning, hopefully. The idea has a basis, in scripture and you may be interested to understand why some have come to this conclusion.
I don't even believe He existed before His birth. He was divinely conceived, but no pre existance to my knowledge anyway. He was the promised seed since Genesis 3:15. Satan had been trying to destroy the bloodline ever since. Like the children murdered in Matt 2:16 and all through the OT.
The trinity was formed in about 400 AD thanks to Constantine. The ...[text shortened]... at of persecution...I am not an expert in the field, but I can refer you to people that are....
(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
(Proverbs 8:22-23) God himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.
(Proverbs 8:27) When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,
(Revelation 3:14) “And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
(Proverbs 8:30) then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,
(Genesis 1:26) And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”
(Proverbs 8:27) When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,
(Revelation 3:14) “And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
(Proverbs 8:30) then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,
(Genesis 1:26) And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”
(Proverbs 8:31) being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
(John 1:3) All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence
some verses to ponder upon, the whole of Proverbs chapter eight is interesting, for this passage cannot be speaking merely about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract. Why not? Because the wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Gods way. God has always existed and has always been wise. (Psalm 90:1, 2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced. It was not “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, thus representing a person
and even more specifically
(John 1:10) He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.
(1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
(Colossians 1:16) because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.
(Hebrews 1:2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.
and finally Jesus own words, as noted below, seem to testify to his prehuman existence:
“No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”—John 3:13.
“Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but my Father does give you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. . . . I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”—John 6:32, 33, 38.
“This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever.”—John 6:50, 51.
“What, therefore, if you should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”—John 6:62.
“My witness is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going. . . . You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.”—John 8:14, 23.
“If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”—John 8:42.
“Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”—John 8:58.
“Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was. Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.”—John 17:5, 24.
I reproduce these verses, not that I am preachy or anything absurd like that, simply for your reflection. Even as we speak i am following the link that you gave - kind regards Robbie.
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15 Mar 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think the link I sent will answer all the verses you mentioned....have fun...🙂
Yes, i have read many articles as to the historicity of the trinity and undoubtedly it is of Pagan origin. it is interesting to hear that you have different view of the Christ, I have always assumed that Christians who accept that he was the promised seed, as you state correctly, since the prophecy was uttered in the book of Genesis, and who acknowl ...[text shortened]... your reflection. Even as we speak i am following the link that you gave - kind regards Robbie.
15 Mar 09
Originally posted by buckkyI would belive that they would go to heaven.
According to the Christian belief where does the soul of an aborted fetus go after being aborted ? I can't imagine Hell would be the destination. So whats left ? Heaven is where the little bundles must go I would think. If they do go to Heaven then they just missed the life on earth experience, but went straight into paradise for eternity. Not that bad of a deal really.
For one thing they were not born into sin yet.
17 Mar 09
Originally posted by dystoniacWe seem to concur on this. Are you a Lutheran perchance?
Christ also told the thief next to him that "today, you shall be with me in paradise". Is "today" a place to sleep? When one dies, he/she goes to be with Jesus or goes to be separated from Jesus for eternity; then, the judgement when God calls ALL dead to come for the final judjement, then the unsaved will depart from God forever, and the saved shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
17 Mar 09
Originally posted by checkbaiterUnitarian Universalist, right?
Christian. My preacher believes likewise. Words like Trinity, incarnate, God the Son, etc., are not found in the bible. My faith rests on the Word of God. Yours seems to be based on tradition and what you are being told by others. As I said earlier, you can choose to believe what you want....God bless...
17 Mar 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe "brand" IS important, for the christ that some denominations purport to serve is not the true Christ of the Bible. So, asking one's denomination is not an insult--there IS and should be, truth in advertising. If you're a Mormon, or a Holy Roller 4 Square Pentecostal, or a Presbyterian, or whatever, you should have the guts to say so.
Brand?, brand?, what are you talking about, Brand?, this isn't some aspect of American culture that you buy in a jar at Quick-e-save. Many others have also tried to push some type of denominational pigeon hole of a definition, Why? so that they can feed their prejudices. I am a human being, get it, a human being and in my part of the world i have ...[text shortened]... your traditions, as the Christ stated to the Pharisees, 'have made the word of God invalid'.
17 Mar 09
Originally posted by PinkFloydand which denominations are true and which are untrue?
The "brand" IS important, for the christ that some denominations purport to serve is not the true Christ of the Bible. So, asking one's denomination is not an insult--there IS and should be, truth in advertising. If you're a Mormon, or a Holy Roller 4 Square Pentecostal, or a Presbyterian, or whatever, you should have the guts to say so.
18 Mar 09
Originally posted by PinkFloydNo, I am a member of the Church of Christ, a non-denominational group that split from the Protestants (Baptists, et al) around late 1700s or early 1800s. We study, relate to, and follow the New Testament (hence Church of Christ); however, we use the Old Testament to study God, the prophets, and their prophesies relating to Jesus Christ. In our worship, Jesus is Lord!
We seem to concur on this. Are you a Lutheran perchance?
18 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by dystoniacin other words, you worship the creation, rather than the creator!
No, I am a member of the Church of Christ, a non-denominational group that split from the Protestants (Baptists, et al) around late 1700s or early 1800s. We study, relate to, and follow the New Testament (hence Church of Christ); however, we use the Old Testament to study God, the prophets, and their prophesies relating to Jesus Christ. In our worship, Jesus is Lord!
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation - Colossians 1:15
18 Mar 09
Originally posted by PinkFloydLikewise you should have the guts to admit that you are part of the apostacy foretold by Paul. Its a simple matter really ... see if you can follow me. The concept of Trinity and terms like 'God the Son' etc, did not exist in the Bible but was brought into doctrine in the 5th century. If Christ or Paul wanted that to be doctrine it would be abundantly clear. Rather it is abundantly clear that Christ is the SON OF GOD, SENT BY GOD, to die for the sins of man. God did not send himself. Any departure from that simple fact means that you are making up doctrine or confusing religious culture with doctrine. Either one should be avoided.
The "brand" IS important, for the christ that some denominations purport to serve is not the true Christ of the Bible. So, asking one's denomination is not an insult--there IS and should be, truth in advertising. If you're a Mormon, or a Holy Roller 4 Square Pentecostal, or a Presbyterian, or whatever, you should have the guts to say so.
19 Mar 09
Originally posted by checkbaiterThis is incorrect. The ancient Greek verse has the comma exactly where common acceptence has it. Without translating every single word, and without benefit of Greek letters, I will try to explain.
[b]Actually, this verse is misinterpreted. Any student of the bible knows that punctuation was added by a translator. The verse you refer to is this...
Luke 23:43
43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
(NAS)
Now, if you place the comma after Today, you have a whole different meaning. It should read thus. ...[text shortened]... ery helpful, but it must be carefully studied to see if it conflicts with the rest of the bible.
In Greek, it reads .....lego, semeron.....paradeiso. "lego" means I say--the words preceding lego refer to the object of the verb (you--meaning the thief). Semeron comes AFTER the comma, which IS right there in the Greek testament, means today, and of course paradeiso is paradise. So you have the original Greek saying "Truly(or Verily), to you I say, today you will be with me in paradise"
Thus endeth the Ancient Greek lesson for today.😀
19 Mar 09
Originally posted by dystoniacI had a gf who was a member of a CoC. I went with her once and thought I saw lots of electronic equipment, speakers, guitars, etc. But since then, I've been told Church of Christ doesn't believe in using musical instruments in their services. True?
No, I am a member of the Church of Christ, a non-denominational group that split from the Protestants (Baptists, et al) around late 1700s or early 1800s. We study, relate to, and follow the New Testament (hence Church of Christ); however, we use the Old Testament to study God, the prophets, and their prophesies relating to Jesus Christ. In our worship, Jesus is Lord!