27 Nov 10
Originally posted by Agergwhether they are 'trivially obvious', is neither here nor there, it is the APPLICATION of the principles which is the proof of their superlative nature, the purest Christian principle of self sacrifice, that is, putting the interests of others ahead of our own. Take for example this passage,
Name such biblical principles and I'll tell you whether they're either trivially obvious enough (for civilised people) such that explicit statement (like don't kill people) need not be given, or whether they have no merit at all (like not working on the Sabbath), or whether they are infact disagreeable (like killing your son to pay a price you set in the first ...[text shortened]... od is forgiving at all.
I fail to see how you're vindicating the Bible with this line.
(Colossians 3:12-14) . . .clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, mildness, and long-suffering. Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Even as Jehovah freely forgave you, so do you also. But, besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union.
Indeed, you have stated that you may find similar principles in the Koran, Chronicles of Thor, etc, i challenge you to produce these principles and what is more, i would like to know, how the application of aforementioned principles that i mention shall in the long term not produce a more loving, purposeful and happy individual, more so than if they have been left to their own devices in a so called civilised society.
27 Nov 10
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI don't recall stating nor implying any such thing; secondly that passage (overlooking the *Jehovah freely forgiving* nonsense) is actually an unstable resolution to the problem of being shafted over by others if always adhered to (in that people who do this will be exploited by those who are fully aware they have nothing to fear by pursuing there own agendas, possibly including rape, kidnap, murder, etc...) . Moreover if one should not *always* adhere to that principle then it just says one should do what people do anyway - hardly compelling evidence for Bible god!
whether they are 'trivially obvious', is neither here nor there, it is the APPLICATION of the principles which is the proof of their superlative nature, the purest Christian principle of self sacrifice, that is, putting the interests of others ahead of our own. Take for example this passage,
(Colossians 3:12-14) . . .clothe yourselves with the t ...[text shortened]... al, more so than if they have been left to their own devices in a so called civilised society.
Again, I fail to see how your Bible looks anymore truthful with this line of argument. Perhaps a more promising angle for you is to argue that "Bible" only has 5 letters in it and establish from this your religion is better than any other...yeah saying "Bible" is much quicker than saying "writings of scientology", ergo God exists!
27 Nov 10
Originally posted by Agergthis is simply not good enough, you stated that there are equally good principles elsewhere and have failed to deliver! Jehovah lives and is awesome!
I don't recall stating nor implying any such thing; secondly that passage (overlooking the *Jehovah freely forgiving* nonsense) is actually an unstable resolution to the problem of being shafted over by others if always adhered to (in that people who do this will be exploited by those who are fully aware they have nothing to fear by pursuing there own agendas, ...[text shortened]... ah saying "Bible" is much quicker than saying "writings of scientology", ergo God exists!
27 Nov 10
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI stated no such thing! Indeed if I were you and I actually believed that comment of yours I'd be bloody quick to reference a post which showed this to be the case. I'm afraid you're just Billy bulls***ing at the moment :]
this is simply not good enough, you stated that there are equally good principles elsewhere and have failed to deliver! Jehovah lives and is awesome!
But I suppose I can indulge your silly argument with an equally silly argument, lets see:
Taken from the Gospel of The Flying Spaghetti Monster (page 99, without capitalising every word since I'm too lazy)
The eight "I'd really rather you didn'ts":
.
.
.
3) I'd really rather you didn't judge people for the way they look, or how they dress, or the way they talk, or, well just play nice okay? oh, and get this into your thick heads: Woman = person. Man = person. Samey-samey. One is not better than the other, unless we're talking about fashion and i'm sorry, but I gave that to women and some guys who know the difference between teal and fuchsia
Clearly playing nice is for the betterment of ones own (and others) well being; ergo the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists!
27 Nov 10
Originally posted by Agergwhy are you not asleep, its 2:48, don't you have a lecture tomorrow. Ill find the statement tomorrow, i am totally wasted just now.
I stated no such thing! Indeed if I were you and I actually believed that comment of yours I'd be bloody quick to reference a post which showed this to be the case. I'm afraid you're just Billy bulls***ing at the moment :]
But I suppose I can indulge your silly argument with an equally silly argument, lets see:
Taken from the Gospel of The Flying Spaghett ...[text shortened]... rment of ones own (and others) well being; ergo the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists!
27 Nov 10
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI should be asleep (though not for saturday lectures!)...but my sleeping pattern is fried at the moment...I wait in eager anticipation of the statement I said (in it's entirety so we can judge context) which backs up your claim :]
why are you not asleep, its 2:48, don't you have a lecture tomorrow. Ill find the statement tomorrow, i am totally wasted just now.
(and of course I just did answer your challenge in my last post anyway)
27 Nov 10
Originally posted by Agergjust to let you know i had spaghetti on toast toady, with melted cheese on the top, your monster was well tasty!
I should be asleep (though not for saturday lectures!)...but my sleeping pattern is fried at the moment...I wait in eager anticipation of the statement I said (in it's entirety so we can judge context) which backs up your claim :]
(and of course I just did answer your challenge anyway in my last post anyway)
27 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by avalanchethecat"My interpretation differs from yours, and you therefore conclude that mine is wrong."
[b]Your perspective is based on a wrong interpretation.
My interpretation differs from yours, and you therefore conclude that mine is wrong. And yet you represent the minority view.
Invert your thinking if you can and try to imagine it differently.
Invert yours and look at it rationally.
You will find this difficult to imagine, across as a patronising ass however - is that a christian ideal, do you think?
I don't have an interpretation. I allow the word of God to speak for itself. It says what it says and means what it says.
I believe what the word of God says and I make no effort to interpret it. I only seek to understand it.
If what you say contradicts the word of God, then I can only conclude that you are wrong.
"You are coming across as a patronising ass however - is that a christian ideal, do you think?"
Of course I am a patronising ass. What do you expect? Nicer than Jesus?
But at least I'm not a hypocrite. You seem to know what a Christian is supposed to be like on the one hand, but on the other you insist that God is an evil ogre intent on causing you pain.
I'd rather be a patronising ass who loves God and acknowledges His Truth, than a hypocrite who knows the truth but believes a lie.
27 Nov 10
Originally posted by Agergit seems to me Agers that you highlight the point being made, in that when one is unforgiving and seeks retribution it simply escalates into a never ending cycle. We see this in places like Palestine, in Northern Ireland , in the Balkans and elsewhere. It seems to me not a question of being shafted over as you put it, but a real solution to ending a destructive cycle. Indeed unless one is prepared to let go, what happens? resentment builds up and destroys the very person who was a victim, thus in this instance and others, it seems to be the the application of Biblical principles is the wise course to take, for what is wisdom but the application of knowledge?
I don't recall stating nor implying any such thing; secondly that passage (overlooking the *Jehovah freely forgiving* nonsense) is actually an unstable resolution to the problem of being shafted over by others if always adhered to (in that people who do this will be exploited by those who are fully aware they have nothing to fear by pursuing there own agendas, ...[text shortened]... ah saying "Bible" is much quicker than saying "writings of scientology", ergo God exists!
27 Nov 10
Originally posted by josephwWell well, you really are all over the place aren't you! Go back to the bible and read Genesis again. Read the story straight - god clearly sets Adam and Eve up for the fall. He didn't have to stick that tree there - he could have put it on a different planet if he'd wanted, or put a 100ft high wall around it or put in on a island or whatever. Then, when they fall for his carefully set trap, he goes right ahead and curses them and all their descendants for eternity! Yes Joseph, that sure looks like an angry god to me, rofl.
"My interpretation differs from yours, and you therefore conclude that mine is wrong."
[b]I don't have an interpretation. I allow the word of God to speak for itself. It says what it says and means what it says.
I believe what the word of God says and I make no effort to interpret it. I only seek to understand it.
If what you say contradicts the wor ...[text shortened]... and acknowledges His Truth, than a hypocrite who knows the truth but believes a lie.[/b]
And if you're telling me, and you do appear to be telling me, that I don't understand what I'm reading, then you are clearly interpreting this story in a rather convoluted manner, whether or not you realise this. When you say 'seek to understand' what you are actually saying is that you seek to find an interpretation which fits with your pre-existing point of view.
And how monstrously arrogant of you to believe that you know the word of god! You have your scripture and your interpretations. You choose to think of that as the word of god and then go ahead and believe it. That doesn't make it true.
And you know what? I expect a christian to act in the manner that christ counselled. You appear to be unable to do this, well done you.
Hypocrite? Look up the word, you are not using it correctly. I know what a christian is supposed to be like, that's easy. You read the NT and act as christ commands. I most certainly did not insist that god is an 'evil ogre intent on causing me pain'! What a strange thing to infer! I merely responded to your request that I explain how I concluded that god seemed to behave with anger. A straightforward reading of the story as written in the bible clearly shows a god who is at the very least extraordinarily unhappy with the conduct of his creations, whether you choose to accept this or not.
You can of course call me a 'hypocrite who knows the truth but believes a lie' but you are grossly mistaken, erring three times in this small sentence. Firstly, you seem to fail to understand what hypocrisy actually is, secondly you assume I know the truth and thirdly you assume I believe a lie.
For your information, hypocrisy is "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess". Please now show me where I have done this.
Conversely, you call yourself a christian and manifestly fail to behave like one. That, Joseph, is hypocrisy.
27 Nov 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecattwo ideas spring to mind hear that have a bearing on this, firstly Adam deliberately ate of the fruit in full recognition that it was wrong and secondly there has been a provision made so that anyone who wishes can relieve themselves of the ultimate consequences of the actions of the first human parents.
Well well, you really are all over the place aren't you! Go back to the bible and read Genesis again. Read the story straight - god clearly sets Adam and Eve up for the fall. He didn't have to stick that tree there - he could have put it on a different planet if he'd wanted, or put a 100ft high wall around it or put in on a island or whatever. Th ...[text shortened]... a christian and manifestly fail to behave like one. That, Joseph, is hypocrisy.
27 Nov 10
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt seems to me you missed my point; I suggested that if one is always forgiving then they will be exploited since there is no fear of reprisal (this will in turn pass the advantage over to those who exploit at the expense of the exploited). That is why I said it is unstable. Also, living by Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti principles is a wiser course to take. I just cannot see how this line of argument of yours has any virtue.
it seems to me Agers that you highlight the point being made, in that when one is unforgiving and seeks retribution it simply escalates into a never ending cycle. We see this in places like Palestine, in Northern Ireland , in the Balkans and elsewhere. It seems to me not a question of being shafted over as you put it, but a real solution to ending a ...[text shortened]... ical principles is the wise course to take, for what is wisdom but the application of knowledge?
I'm still waiting for that post of mine to show how I stated you'll find nice principles in other holy books (prior to the one I gave in the Gospel of the FSM) btw.
27 Nov 10
Originally posted by Agerghere is your statement dear Agers,
It seems to me you missed my point; I suggested that if one is always forgiving then they will be exploited (this will in turn pass the advantage over to those who exploit at the expense of the exploited). That is why I said it is unstable. Moreover, living by Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti principles is a wise course to take. I just cannot see how this line o ...[text shortened]... nd nice principles in other holy books (prior to the one I gave in the Gospel of the FSM) btw.
Your Bible is no better an indicator as to the veracity of your beliefs than the Koran, Chronicles of Thor, the writings of Scientology, or any other human work,
which suggests to me that you deem such works as of equal validity, i was merely trying to ascertain on what basis you deem them to be of equal value and what principles led you to this conclusion (the failure of Joseph to establish the veracity of his beliefs notwithstanding)
27 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHow could he have full knowledge it was wrong if eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (where "good" here is what god likes and "evil" being not what god likes) is a prerequisite for differentiating between right and wrong?
two ideas spring to mind hear that have a bearing on this, firstly Adam deliberately ate of the fruit in full recognition that it was wrong and secondly there has been a provision made so that anyone who wishes can relieve themselves of the ultimate consequences of the actions of the first human parents.