How old is the universe?

@metal-brain said
That is another thing about scientists. They lie about stuff like claiming Einstein's theory of GR proves black holes exist. It doesn't prove that and never did. Einstein did not even believe they existed back then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein's_unsuccessful_investigations

Scientists are flawed people just like everybody else. People will make lofty claim ...[text shortened]... self no matter how honest they are being. If people respected honesty they would not vote for liars.

I agree, more or less the same with new discoveries in civilization’s of old and their progress being very much farther along that thought through new tech. If someone can’t be honest with themselves to admit when wrong and ask for others knowledge also their doomed for failure. Also people coming together with those different ideas to look for connections that could show up leading to answers. The culture isn’t set up that way as pride, ego and more, also not reaching for the stars In all directions together as one progressing as one.

@mike69 said
I agree, more or less the same with new discoveries in civilization’s of old and their progress being very much farther along that thought through new tech. If someone can’t be honest with themselves to admit when wrong and ask for others knowledge also their doomed for failure. Also people coming together with those different ideas to look for connections that could show up ...[text shortened]... ego and more, also not reaching for the stars In all directions together as one progressing as one.

That reminds me of a program I saw about native Americans in the Amazon and the Maya in Mexico. After smallpox and influenza killed 90% of them off it was huge setback and it seemed like they didn't have advanced civilizations after that. Technology is helping us find the lost cities in the jungles. Is that what you were thinking of?

@Metal-Brain
there is no center...or put another way, everywhere is the center. and the Universe is expanding because Dark Energy is pushing it apart..(in every direction, equally)...

@metal-brain said
That reminds me of a program I saw about native Americans in the Amazon and the Maya in Mexico. After smallpox and influenza killed 90% of them off it was huge setback and it seemed like they didn't have advanced civilizations after that. Technology is helping us find the lost cities in the jungles. Is that what you were thinking of?

Yes, watched about it last night using tech to remove the trees and they realized just how wrong they were. Along with others older.

@metal-brain said
The assertion that the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light is an extraordinary claim that deserves extraordinary evidence. We have all been told that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light and now we are told the universe's expansion can.

Where is the evidence?

Here is something I noticed from the link below:

"The cosmic microwave bac ...[text shortened]... theories as facts. It is annoying. They don't really know. It would be nice if they could admit it.

I do think microwave waves, radiation have more to do with some things than known, or I know.

@mlb62 said
@Metal-Brain
there is no center...or put another way, everywhere is the center. and the Universe is expanding because Dark Energy is pushing it apart..(in every direction, equally)...

Okay. If there is no center does that means if a galaxy can be found 14 billion light years away or more the present estimated age of the universe can be proven wrong?

I once read an article that claimed that the universe was nearly twice the distance in circumference than the age of the universe. I pointed out that was impossible because if the universe is less than 14 billion years old how can you see galaxies more than 14 billion light years away if you are seeing more than 14 billion years in the past?

Apparently that claim was based on the assumption there is a center of the universe and we are seeing what is on the other side of the center of the universe. That was the explanation of how a universe from one edge to the other could be twice the light years as the edge to the center. Follow me?

So if there in no center and the universe is bigger than we can see and we already saw galaxies 13 billion light years away how can anyone possibly know the universe is less than 14 billion years old? Nobody can rule out galaxies more than 14 billion light years away if the light has not reached us yet.

That is where the universe expanding faster than the speed of light comes in, but I am skeptical. Where is the fargin evidence? I don't want a mere assertion. I want proof that it is true.

@mike69 said
Yes, watched about it last night using tech to remove the trees and they realized just how wrong they were. Along with others older.

I thought so. That was very interesting.
I sometimes wonder how different things would be if European diseases didn't kill off 90% of the natives. It wasn't a fair fight if you know what I mean.

@metal-brain said
I thought so. That was very interesting.
I sometimes wonder how different things would be if European diseases didn't kill off 90% of the natives. It wasn't a fair fight if you know what I mean.

In what ways do you wonder of things being different? My new granddaughter has Mayan decent along with my two native descents so I was curious about them. I have been to some of the ruins, their awesome and amazing. It’s also curious how similarities are found around the world at these times and earlier with planes and internet not available, yet almost looks like it.

@mike69 said
In what ways do you wonder of things being different? My new granddaughter has Mayan decent along with my two native descents so I was curious about them. I have been to some of the ruins, their awesome and amazing. It’s also curious how similarities are found around the world at these times and earlier with planes and internet not available, yet almost looks like it.

Well, white people really screwed over the natives because they could. I used to think it was because we had more advanced weapons so they could not compete militarily. Although that is true, white people only had to fight 10% of them that didn't like being screwed over. If 90% of them had not died from European diseases it would not have been so easy to walk all over them.

Many of those lost cities would not have been abandoned as well. Much of their culture was forgotten because of the sudden population decline. Had that not happened we could have learned so much more about them than we can now.

@Metal-Brain

The universe is a hard thing to grasp, because it is "everything," and is not properly regarded as being situated in some "bigger" space.

Knocking the number of spatial dimensions down from 3 to 2, we could simplistically envision representing the universe as bits of matter stuck to the surface of an expanding sphere (like a balloon). The sphere starts as a point (radius zero), and then, as it grows, the space between the bits of matter increases. Indeed, every point on the surface of the sphere (our "space​​​​​​" ) increases its distance from every other point. In this sense "new" space is being created (by dint of the surface area of the sphere increasing). Where's the center of this universe? Well, there is none. No point on the sphere is the point where the expansion began.

And the expansion of space is not limited by the speed of light. The speed of light holds within space, and does not apply to space itself. Nothing in our expanding universe, as far as we know, is moving through space at more than the speed of light. Space is not modeled as traveling through any kind of medium forming a "bigger" space.

As for the age and size of the universe, it is ultimately only guessed at based on the available evidence. It could be infinite large and infinitely old, and some theoreticians are still working on ways to make that work with the cosmic microwave background's observed properties.

@soothfast said
@Metal-Brain

The universe is a hard thing to grasp, because it is "everything," and is not properly regarded as being situated in some "bigger" space.

Knocking the number of spatial dimensions down from 3 to 2, we could simplistically envision representing the universe as bits of matter stuck to the surface of an expanding sphere (like a balloon). The sphere starts ...[text shortened]... still working on ways to make that work with the cosmic microwave background's observed properties.

"And the expansion of space is not limited by the speed of light."

Where is the fargin evidence?

@metal-brain said
"And the expansion of space is not limited by the speed of light."

Where is the fargin evidence?

There is not direct evidence, so far as I know. It is theorized, and does not seem to run afoul of any principles of relativity theory or quantum mechanics. The inflationary model was concocted to make the facts fit the observations, and is still a matter of debate among some cosmologists.

@soothfast said
There is not direct evidence, so far as I know. It is theorized, and does not seem to run afoul of any principles of relativity theory or quantum mechanics. The inflationary model was concocted to make the facts fit the observations, and is still a matter of debate among some cosmologists.

It should be a matter of debate among cosmologists. That is exactly the problem. We are not getting enough debates on the subject. It seems like a convenient excuse to avoid admitting someone was wrong. The facts do not fit the observations? Don't you mean "measurements"? Measurements can be wrong. I suspect the facts do not fit someones flawed theory. Rather than admit it, make up something that cannot be proven. I see that more than I would like to.

Dark matter? Like fairy dust. Unproven crap to explain errors in measurement.
Measurement errors would satisfy occams razor. Measurement errors should be ruled out before making up theoretical crap. When you look at the constellations do you see them move over your lifetime? You cannot observe the movement of stars. You can only try to measure them.

Dark energy is probably another term for time dilation. Opposite of gravity. Instead of attraction there is repulsion from a increased time area in space. That would explain the acceleration. Isn't that the basis of Einstein's cosmological constant? Then again, the acceleration is a measurement too. Rule out a measurement error first. These things are far too slow to observe. Try not to confuse observation with measurement.

@metal-brain said
So are you claiming that the universe had a center point (singularity) that the whole universe expanded from? If so, where is the center of the universe?

At its centre.

@metal-brain said
"And the expansion of space is not limited by the speed of light."

Where is the fargin evidence?

That’s the theory, yes.

The speed of light is constrained by the fabric of spacetime, the expansion of spacetime isn’t.