01 Dec 07
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Originally posted by Mark AdkinsI would like to add that words "also for them who is calling Latvia fascist country" was adressed to people who possibly was affected by tiltle in http://www.thecopydude.com/?p=379#comment-7877
Since English is not your native tongue, I will simply, patiently point out (again) that nobody here has called Latvia "fascist".
The death of IM Nikolaev is of course deplorable. Though not a Putin fan, I do, however, ask why Putin's name is raised in connection with the death. Not another political assassination, I take it? 😉
To the best o ...[text shortened]... described in the news article. (Obviously Kasparov himself would not condone any such acts.)
I didn`t say that Putin was involved in that act personally, but dont forget - such kind of conflict has begun when Putin was president. Also I would like to mention that "Nashi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashi_(Ours) ), also called Putin-jugend (very influent organisation in Russia) is quite natinonalistics and xenofobistics organization.
upd. I would recommend you to read following books of Anna Politkovskaya:
1) Putin's Russia: Life in a Failing Democracy;
2) A Russian Diary: A Journalist's Final Account of Life, Corruption, and Death in Putin's Russia,
01 Dec 07
Originally posted by KorchRacist skinheads were a problem in Russia well before Putin came to office.
I didn`t say that Putin was involved in that act personally, but dont forget - such kind of conflict has begun when Putin was president. Also I would like to mention that "Nashi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashi_(Ours) ), also called Putin-jugend (very influent organisation in Russia) is quite natinonalistics and xenofobistics organization.
Nashi claims to be anti-racist and anti-fascist. (They are also used to harass the government's political opponents, but such harassment is not racist in nature.) You may be confusing the organization called Nashi which was started in 2005, with a previous, unrelated, ultra-nationalist organization also called Nashi which existed in the early 1990s. The Wikipedia article you cited describes the latter in the section "Other Uses" near the bottom of the article.
01 Dec 07
Originally posted by Mark Adkins"Nashi" may claim themselves as they want but they are radical nationalists.
Racist skinheads were a problem in Russia well before Putin came to office.
Nashi claims to be anti-racist and anti-fascist. (They are also used to harass the government's political opponents, but such harassment is not racist in nature.) You may be confusing the organization called Nashi which was started in 2005, with a previous, unrelated, ultr ...[text shortened]... le you cited describes the latter in the section "Other Uses" near the bottom of the article.
01 Dec 07
Originally posted by KorchHere is an interesting collection of contrasting viewpoints on the subject:
"Nashi" may claim themselves as they want but they are radical nationalists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nashi_%28Ours%29
According to one contributor:
"Nashi encourage multi cultural exchanges, they host fairs for example where different nationalities can take part and share their culture, they oppose xenophobia and promote events against racism."
Does that mean that they are a bunch of nice kids? No. But I don't see them encouraging attacks like the one on IM Nikolaev. By contrast, some of the right-wing nationalist groups taking part in Garry Kasparov's umbrella organization have demonstrated true fascist tendencies.
02 Dec 07
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsAccording to other contributor:
Here is an interesting collection of contrasting viewpoints on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nashi_%28Ours%29
According to one contributor:
"Nashi encourage multi cultural exchanges, they host fairs for example where different nationalities can take part and share their culture, they oppose xenophobia and promote events against ...[text shortened]... ng part in Garry Kasparov's umbrella organization have demonstrated true fascist tendencies.
"The russian riots in Estonia in April 2007 showed that "Nashi" is Putin's tool even across the borders. In an interview with an Estonian Defence Police detective, was said that Putin is supporting them with billions, all their actions against countries that are not in cremlins favour are very smoothly organized and if usually OMON beats up allkind of protesters within minutes, then if "Nashi" was blocking Estonian embassy, the authorities were just watching, sayng that they do not have any orders to interrupt blockade against embassy. Also about Tallinn riots, main organizers of the russian terror were linked with "Nashi", one of them was even a "Nashi" commisary, it is no coincidence, that at the same time nashist were picketing with this kid pictures, saying that they demand liberation of an innocent schoolboy. Even police authorities and intelligence specialists have said, that "Nashi" is excactly like "Hitlerjugend".
It does mean that "Nash" is encouraging hate against people from other countries that are not in Putins favour - "bronze soldier" affair is good example.
02 Dec 07
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It is true that there is no evidence that Putin is personally racist, and he may even be embarrassed by some of the more extreme racist incidents in his country. (It's interesting that 'Diskamyl', who is a Marxist, in an earlier post in this thread calls Putin an "almost fascist leader".) However, Putin has been known to use extreme nationalists like Zhirinovsky when it suits him. In that way it's rather similar to the way that Slobodan Miloševic used to use extreme Serb Nationalists like Karadjic and Seselj (i.e. when it suited his agenda).
There is also no evidence whatever that Kasparov is racist or in any way condones racism. I've made it clear in earlier posts that I agree that he has been naive, possibly even foolish, in some of the company he has kept. However, ultimately Putin is the man in charge in Russia, and it is he who should be responsible for combatting the alarming increase in racist attacks in Russia. He seems so effective in suppressing the liberal opposition, so why can't he do something similar with the extreme right? One gets the strong impression the Russian police don't always have their heart in it when they investigate such incidents.
02 Dec 07
Originally posted by KorchNashi also opposes native Russians who are not in Putin's favor. Do you call them anti-Russian also? Nashi's activities against Putin's political opposition are exactly that, not examples of inciting racial hatred.
It does mean that "Nash" is encouraging hate against people from other countries that are not in Putins favour - "bronze soldier" affair is good example.
As for the Bronze Soldier affair, it may not be the best example with which to illustrate your point. See for example this article (which also illuminates the aforementioned blog author's use of the term "fascist", I think):
http://www.thecopydude.com/?p=172
02 Dec 07
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Originally posted by Northern LadI agree that Kasparov is not a racist and does not condone racism.
. . .There is also no evidence whatever that Kasparov is racist or in any way condones racism. I've made it clear in earlier posts that I agree that he has been naive, possibly even foolish, in some of the company he has kept. However, ultimately Putin is the man in charge in Russia, and it is he who should be responsible for combatting the alarming inc the Russian police don't always have their heart in it when they investigate such incidents.
But how long can you shield him behind the label "naive" when he has been politically active with this group for nearly three years? To me this is no longer indicative of naivety: it is indicative of cynical political opportunism, of "going to bed with" whomever he thought might advance his political career, which is why I used the inflammatory description "political whore" to describe him. Why does he associate himself with extremists and hooligans when his efforts as a reformer and political activist would be welcomed by centrist parties like Yabloko and the Union of Right Forces? Because those parties already have established leaders and he would be a little fish in a big pond.
If it seems odd that I am angrier with Kasparov than Putin, despite clear evidence that the latter is far worse than the former, it is only because I hold Kasparov to higher standards because he began with greater promise. Putin's expediency should surprise no one; Kasparov's is disappointing.
As to the efficacy of the Russian police and domestic intelligence service in repressing right-wing groups, I have not noticed any special tolerance demonstrated. Perhaps you could give some examples? I wonder what basis you could have when you write about your personal impressions of the attitudes of Russian police investigators?
02 Dec 07
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Originally posted by Mark AdkinsNazi also opposed native Germans who were not in Hitler`s favor - does it mean that they were not radical nationalists and anti-semits?
Nashi also opposes native Russians who are not in Putin's favor. Do you call them anti-Russian also? Nashi's activities against Putin's political opposition are exactly that, not examples of inciting racial hatred.
As for the Bronze Soldier affair, it may not be the best example with which to illustrate your point. See for example this article ...[text shortened]... ed blog author's use of the term "fascist", I think):
http://www.thecopydude.com/?p=172
That article discloses official attitude of Russia and contains assurances about current situation in Estonia without real arguments. Also there are no arguments (only according to claim from Amnesty International) to state that demand of knowing official state language from people who works in rendery of services (or state service) is discrimination. Also in that article was not mentioned that European Court of Human Rights have concluded that such demands is not controversial human rights.
The same absurd rhetoric Russia uses also against Latvia. In one of previous posts if this thread I did mention example showing that "discriminated" Russians living in Latvia does not want to live in Russia.
02 Dec 07
Originally posted by KorchNazis specifically targeted ethnic and religious groups *in addition to* attacking general critics of the regime, whereas Nashi, though obviously "nationalistic" (it describes itself as a patriotic group) *explicitly rejects* anti-semitism, racism and fascism in its own propaganda -- something which cannot be said about the Nazis.
Nazi also opposed native Germans who were not in Hitler`s favor - does it mean that they were not radical nationalists and anti-semits?
Certainly Nashi members are obnoxious lap dogs of the current Russian regime, and deserve contempt. But let's try to be accurate.
02 Dec 07
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Originally posted by Mark AdkinsI think this whole argument is going round in circles. I freely admit that Kasparov can be accused of many things, some worse than naivity. Egotism and vanity come to mind. But I remain with my original point. Kasparov has shown considerable personal courage in opposing a ruthless leader who seems intent on extinguishing all real trappings of democracy and human rights in Russia (particularly so when one considers the fate of so many Putin critics in Russia - Kasparov freely admits he's lucky to be rich enough to afford bodyguards). He may well have done many things wrong, but in his position, wouldn't it have been easier to have done nothing at all?
I agree that Kasparov is not a racist and does not condone racism.
But how long can you shield him behind the label "naive" when he has been politically active with this group for nearly three years? To me this is no longer indicative of naivety: it is indicative of cynical political opportunism, of "going to bed with" whomever he thought might adv write about your personal impressions of the attitudes of Russian police investigators?
And I don't understand your implication that his motives are coloured by personal ambition and careerist opportunism. He knows he has little or no chance of success in stopping Putin any time soon (or indeed of any personal advancement). If all he'd really wanted was to advance a political career in Russia, surely he would have joined Putin's crew? I'm sure he would have been very welcome.
I don't wish to defend Kasparov's involvement in setting up Other Russia rather than join existing centrist groups, since I think that the criticism has some justification. He certainly went too far to label them stooges of the Kremlin, but he would have had a point if he had limited himself to the observation that their opposition to Putin has often been ineffectual and lacking direction and vitality.
02 Dec 07
Originally posted by Northern LadAnd yet, who has had more political influence in Russia (institutionally or with the public): Garry Kasparov, or Yabloko and The Union of Right Forces?
I don't wish to defend Kasparov's involvement in setting up Other Russia rather than join existing centrist groups, since I think that the criticism has some justification. He certainly went too far to label them stooges of the Kremlin, but he would have had a point if he had limited himself to the observation that their opposition to Putin has often been ineffectual and lacking direction and vitality.
Admittedly, the latter two are also weak. Not surprising. Putin's government has neutered them at the institutional level, and their platforms have little mass appeal (as opposed to appeal to Western editorial writers and talking-heads). According to the London Sunday Times the only opposition group in Russia with any mass appeal these days is "communists":
"Opposition parties have lost ground. Only communists retain mass appeal. The others pose little threat to the establishment. Nonetheless, their members are sometimes pursued: the Kremlin, not as self-assured as it seems, takes them more seriously than the electorate."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2439828.ece
02 Dec 07
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsNashi may declare themselves how they want, but it does not affect fact that being lap dogs of the current Russian regime they are rousing hate to states who does not act as Putin wants - the best example is their attitude to Baltic states which they are calling fascistic, making them image of enemy.
Nazis specifically targeted ethnic and religious groups *in addition to* attacking general critics of the regime, whereas Nashi, though obviously "nationalistic" (it describes itself as a patriotic group) *explicitly rejects* anti-semitism, racism and fascism in its own propaganda -- something which cannot be said about the Nazis.
Certainly Nashi mem ...[text shortened]... lap dogs of the current Russian regime, and deserve contempt. But let's try to be accurate.