@no1maraudersaid If it's possible, maybe we could drop the Biden v. Trump blame game discussion and focus on the issues involved.
Here's a draft agreement Russia proposed in December to NATO: https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790803/?lang=en
The most relevant parts are:
"Article 4
The Russian Federation and all the Parties that were member States of the North Atlantic ...[text shortened]... w which of these conditions are completely unacceptable to NATO (including the US)? If any are, why?
This seems only tangentially related to what is going on in Ukraine which has more to do with an economic tug of war with the EU than a military showdown with NATO.
@earl-of-trumpssaid even if we were sending in troops, you have to get the diplomats out.
Think WWII and pulling embassy staffers from France or even Germany. You gotta do it
Diplomats are most important in times of war but you don't need full embassy staff.
@athousandyoungsaid This seems only tangentially related to what is going on in Ukraine which has more to do with an economic tug of war with the EU than a military showdown with NATO.
@no1maraudersaid If it's possible, maybe we could drop the Biden v. Trump blame game discussion and focus on the issues involved.
Here's a draft agreement Russia proposed in December to NATO: https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790803/?lang=en
The most relevant parts are:
"Article 4
The Russian Federation and all the Parties that were member States of the North Atlantic ...[text shortened]... w which of these conditions are completely unacceptable to NATO (including the US)? If any are, why?
The Russian Federation and all the Parties that were member States of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization as of 27 May 1997, respectively, shall not deploy military forces and weaponry on the territory of any of the other States in Europe in addition to the forces stationed on that territory as of 27 May 1997.
Russia already did this so how can they agree not to?
@no1maraudersaid What are you talking about? The subject of this thread isn't the events in 2014 but the possibility of an overt Russian invasion of Ukraine NOW.
The subject of this thread is the removal of embassy personnel from Ukraine. You asked us to consider "the issues" involved.
The conflict in Ukraine is not based on the "issue" of Russian defense. Putin is simply trying to strongarm the West into implicitly accepting that Crimea does not belong to Ukraine and therefore Russia hasn't put any troops on foreign soil "since 1997". It's a manipulative legalistic propaganda ploy.
Russia has been moving forces to the Crimea Peninsula as part of a large military buildup on Ukraine’s border
That's like moving US forces to Baja as part of a large military buildup on the Mexican border or French forces to Cornwall as part of a large military buildup on the British border...it kind of obscures the fact that the buildup is occurring INSIDE the country in question
@athousandyoungsaid The subject of this thread is the removal of embassy personnel from Ukraine. You asked us to consider "the issues" involved.
The conflict in Ukraine is not based on the "issue" of Russian defense. Putin is simply trying to strongarm the West into implicitly accepting that Crimea does not belong to Ukraine and therefore Russia hasn't put any troops on foreign soil "since 1997". It's a manipulative legalistic propaganda ploy.
Funny, no where in the proposals is an insistence that NATO accept the Crimean annexation.
Russia has objected to the Eastern expansion of NATO for a long time. It's hardly likely the US would accept Western Hemisphere States joining in a military alliance aimed at restraining US action.
@jimm619 hi)
yes, your help is invaluable. It is thanks to the United States and our partners that we have withstood the onslaught of the enemy for the eighth year in a row. I have many friends now at the front, I myself often visit the region where the fighting is taking place. And I want to say that over the years the level of the army has increased dramatically. Now it is simply impossible to repeat the scenario with the annexation of Crimea. What can the average American do? Do not trust any word of the Russian media. And don't forget that somewhere people are shedding blood to remain a democracy, not part of the USSR.
Sorry for my level of English - I'm not a native speaker 🙂
@no1maraudersaid Funny, no where in the proposals is an insistence that NATO accept the Crimean annexation.
Russia has objected to the Eastern expansion of NATO for a long time. It's hardly likely the US would accept Western Hemisphere States joining in a military alliance aimed at restraining US action.
Your mind reading attempts are unpersuasive.
Analogy - Suppose the USA invaded Nova Scotia and then suggested a treaty to prevent the USA from invading Canada which included conditions such as "nobody is allowed to put military forces in Canada" while turning Nova Scotia into a military base bristling with amphibious assault ships and tanks.
Would you be sympathetic to the USA's "defensive" demands?
The US is removing the families of embassy staff.
NATO has massive troop presence all over the border with Russia (even doing tank excersises a few years back… in Poland, along the border).
The West’s rhetoric the last few weeks is: “Oh Russia is planning an invasion, and now Putin can’t back down or lose face.”
It’s like they’re deliberately poking the bear.
One can only wander what the West’s agenda is on this wee pile of poop gathering at the doorsteps.
Russia is clear: less NATO on their borders.
What the West want is rather more vague.
@shavixmirsaid The US is removing the families of embassy staff.
NATO has massive troop presence all over the border with Russia (even doing tank excersises a few years back… in Poland, along the border).
The West’s rhetoric the last few weeks is: “Oh Russia is planning an invasion, and now Putin can’t back down or lose face.”
It’s like they’re deliberately poking the bear.
One ca ...[text shortened]... doorsteps.
Russia is clear: less NATO on their borders.
What the West want is rather more vague.
How is invading Ukraine going to stop NATO on Russian borders?
@athousandyoungsaid How is invading Ukraine going to stop NATO on Russian borders?
It will stop the US and NATO from putting nuclear missiles in the Ukraine. You know, like they did in Turkey. That is why the USSR put nukes in Cuba, to get the US to pull those nukes out of Turkey. It worked too.
Putin removing embassy folks from Ukraine.
23 Jan '22 05:15
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