25 Jun 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOdd....you disagree with me then post a paragraph that confirms what I said.
they may not have had an agency, but there were people involved in gathering intelligence, the history of the CIA, homepage,
Foreign intelligence has been important to the United States since the days of George Washington, but it’s only been since World War II that such efforts have been coordinated on a government-wide level. Even before Pearl H ...[text shortened]... attorney and World War I hero William J. Donovan to draft a plan for a new intelligence service.
25 Jun 09
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Originally posted by Sam The Shamwhat is it about they were gathering intelligence prior to WWII, irrespective of whether there was an agency or not that you do not understand? OCI and OSS, and CIG were heralded by whom, Donovan, 'old school', thus showing an unmistakable continuity, deny it if you can!
Odd....you disagree with me then post a paragraph that confirms what I said.
25 Jun 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDonovan didn't start any of that until 1941. Denied.
what is it about they were gathering intelligence prior to WWII, irrespective of whether there was an agency or not that you do not understand? OCI and OSS, and CIG were heralded by whom, Donovan, 'old school', thus showing an unmistakable continuity, deny it if you can!
26 Jun 09
Originally posted by FMFOne thing I was thinking about. You don't see a mass exodus of people just dying to move to Russia to live. We've had people come here to live however from all of those former Soviet Republics. Why? If the U.S. is so bad? I think whatever you want to say is fine but My Ukrainian friends moved here because they wanted to escape so they could have freedom.
And I have been encouraging you, obliquely, to consider things from Russians' perspectives. I would be interested to hear what your empathetic skills conjure up. Go on. For the debatular fun of it.
Manny
26 Jun 09
Originally posted by menace71Well almost all Russian citizens live in Russia, and will do so till the day they pass away. I don't think we're going to disagree about that. They just get on with their everyday lives like Americans, Zambians, Peruvians and Cambodians do, for instance. I don't see why one would want to only try to empathize with the tiny minority that want to migrate. What about those ordinary Russians that live in Russia? What do you think they make of the U.S.'s foreign policies, its conduct of the so called War On Terror, apparent encirclement and containment policies, the expansion of NATO, its attacks on foreign countries etc. etc. Look, I won't push this wee bit of try wearing the other guy's shoes thing too much more, if you're not up for it. I know that some nations/cultures just have to have 'enemies' and allowing oneself to humanize those 'enemies' causes a bit of cognitive dissonance. If you don't see the value of seeing how others might see things, that's fine.
One thing I was thinking about. You don't see a mass exodus of people just dying to move to Russia to live. We've had people come here to live however from all of those former Soviet Republics. Why? If the U.S. is so bad? I think whatever you want to say is fine but My Ukrainian friends moved here because they wanted to escape so they could have freedom.
Manny
26 Jun 09
Originally posted by FMFI don't see the Russians as "enemies" at all. In the almost 20 years between Perestroika and a few years ago, I think most Americans saw the Russians as potential allies and many continue to do so. After 9/11, the Russians seemed at least sympathetic to the war on Al Qaeda.
Well almost all Russian citizens live in Russia, and will do so till the day they pass away. I don't think we're going to disagree about that. They just get on with their everyday lives like Americans, Zambians, Peruvians and Cambodians do, for instance. I don't see why one would want to only try to empathize with the tiny minority that want to migrate. What abo ...[text shortened]... nce. If you don't see the value of seeing how others might see things, that's fine.
I think that the recent breakdown of Russian relations with the US and other western countries has mostly to do with the stubbornness and hard headedness of Putin and something to do with the same of Bush (though I blame Putin more than Bush). But I don't see any fundamental reason relations with Russia can't be improved.
26 Jun 09
Originally posted by sh76When I was in the Air Force as a young feller I hated Russians. I went in when Regan was ramping up the military. Now though I don't know why we were ever enemies. I think we had so much anti Russian propaganda going that people such a myself just reacted and didn't question the source. Of course at that time the internet didn't exist.
I don't see the Russians as "enemies" at all. In the almost 20 years between Perestroika and a few years ago, I think most Americans saw the Russians as potential allies and many continue to do so. After 9/11, the Russians seemed at least sympathetic to the war on Al Qaeda.
I think that the recent breakdown of Russian relations with the US and other western ...[text shortened]... than Bush). But I don't see any fundamental reason relations with Russia can't be improved.
27 Jun 09
Originally posted by sh76What exactly did Putin do to worsen Russian-American relations except to defend Russian interests as he was supposed to in his position? The US, on the other hand, expanded Nato to include Eastern European & Baltic states (which was a violation of oral agreement dating back to Gorbachev years) and wants to do the same with Ukraine & Georgia. It also plans to install radars & missiles into Poland and Chech Republic right near the Russian border.
I don't see the Russians as "enemies" at all. In the almost 20 years between Perestroika and a few years ago, I think most Americans saw the Russians as potential allies and many continue to do so. After 9/11, the Russians seemed at least sympathetic to the war on Al Qaeda.
I think that the recent breakdown of Russian relations with the US and other western ...[text shortened]... than Bush). But I don't see any fundamental reason relations with Russia can't be improved.
BTW a little advertised fact in the West is that the day after 9/11 Putin said in his speech on Russian TV to the Americans "We are with you".
27 Jun 09
Originally posted by joe beyserExactly right. The propaganda part is as true today as it was then.
When I was in the Air Force as a young feller I hated Russians. I went in when Regan was ramping up the military. Now though I don't know why we were ever enemies. I think we had so much anti Russian propaganda going that people such a myself just reacted and didn't question the source. Of course at that time the internet didn't exist.
27 Jun 09
Originally posted by joe beyserI bet your right. Thats what goverments do .Thats why the Japs fought so hard w/ all the island fighting in ww2. They were told we did not take prisoners,etc so their only choice was to fight to the death
I bet they had as much or more propaganda out against us.