Spirituality
23 Sep 18
Originally posted by @rajk999Nobody commands God. This is what God is saying to King Cyrus. If you read the context it will be clear. Instead you carry on with your usual nonsense of picking out passages and without using your common sense. The Jewish translation experts have determined that that passage is really attempting to say the opposite of what you mistakenly say it means.
COMMANDING ??!!
GOD ??
LOL .. you really need to ask God to help to read and understand.
Many modern translations now use this wording:
Do we dare say to our parents, "Why did you make me like this?" The LORD, the holy God of Israel, the one who shapes the future, says: "You have no right to question me about my children or to tell me what I ought to do! I am the one who made the earth and created human beings to live there. By my power I stretched out the heavens; I control the sun, the moon, and the stars.
(Isaiah 45:10-12 GNB)
This makes more sense. You continue to fool the gullible with your false doctrines.
27 Sep 18
Originally posted by @rajk999You are responding to you!
Nobody commands God. This is what God is saying to King Cyrus. If you read the context it will be clear. Instead you carry on with your usual nonsense of picking out passages and without using your common sense. The Jewish translation experts have determined that that passage is really attempting to say the opposite of what you mistakenly say it means.
...[text shortened]... GNB)[/i]
This makes more sense. You continue to fool the gullible with your false doctrines.
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27 Sep 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @rajk999Chapter 45 of Isaiah does start with God addressing Cyrus the king.
Nobody commands God. This is what God is saying to King Cyrus. If you read the context it will be clear. Instead you carry on with your usual nonsense of picking out passages and without using your common sense. The Jewish translation experts have determined that that passage is really attempting to say the opposite of what you mistakenly say it means.
...[text shortened]... GNB)[/i]
This makes more sense. You continue to fool the gullible with your false doctrines.
"Thus says Jehovah to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped". (1.)
It should be mentioned that here God is using the Gentile king Cyrus in a positive way according to Divine Providence. He is using Cyrus for His purpose.
Cyrus is called God's "anointed". This is really according to God's transcendent sovereignty over ALL of the world leaders. In the rebuilding of the temple after the Babylonian Captivity Cyrus is a positive instrument in God's hands.
I think these words were spoken before Cyrus was born amazingly.
"For the sake of My servant, Jacob, And Israel, My chosen one,
I have also called you by your name; I have surnamed you, although you do not know Me.
I am Jehovah and there is no one else; Besides Me there is no God; That they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me.
I am Jehovah and there is no one else; He who forms light and creates darkness, He who makes peace and creates evil,
I am Jehovah who makes all these things." (vs.1-7)
Yes, Cyrus is going to be a Gentile king. The point here is God's absolute transcendence over all of time and history and her world leaders. He will providentially appoint and anoint Cyrus to do His will to the benefit of His people Israel.
Again we see God is above all His creation in an absolute authority.
"Woe to him who strives with the One who formed him - A potsherd among the earthen potsherds.
Shall the clay say to the One who forms it, What are You making? And your work says, He has no hands?
Woe to him who says to his father, What are you begetting? Or to a woman, What are you bringing forth? (vs.9,10)
Now we have next the verses in question, verse 11.
Man is not to strive with God. But man is to be in harmony with God so that man's desire is the same as God's. And in this oneness may remind or even command God to perform His will which is also on their hearts about His sons.
"Thus says Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel ..."
Notice that this is now the second "Thus says Jehovah" so far in this chapter. I don't think we can insist that here God is still only addressing Cyrus the king. And I don't think it would make a difference.
"Thus says Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel and the One who formed him,
Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And concerning the work of My hands command Me." (v.11)
In the next post I will review some other English translations of verse 11.
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27 Sep 18
2 edits
I am happy to concede that I notice a number of versions which agree with that kind of rendering that Rajk999 recommends. But I think it is wrong, though I am not a Hebrew scholar. I would go with these renderings.
Some other English renderings of Isa. 45:11
New American Standard Bible
Thus says the LORD, ... "Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands.
King James Bible
Thus saith the LORD, ... Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Christian Standard Bible
This is what the LORD, ... "Ask me what is to happen to my sons, and instruct me about the work of my hands."
Holman Christian Standard Bible
This is what the LORD, ... Ask Me what is to happen to My sons, and instruct Me about the work of My hands.
JPS Tanakh 1917
Thus saith the LORD, The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: Ask Me of the things that are to come; Concerning My sons, and concerning the work of My hands, command ye Me.
King James 2000 Bible
Thus says the LORD, ... Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands, you command me.
American King James Version
Thus said the LORD, ... Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command you me.
American Standard Version
Thus saith Jehovah, ... Ask me of the things that are to come; concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands, command ye me.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Thus saith the Lord the Holy One of Israel, his maker: Ask me of things to come, concerning my children, and concerning the work of my hands give ye charge to me.
Darby Bible Translation
Thus saith Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: Ask me of the things to come; concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands, command ye me.
English Revised Version
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: Ask me of the things that are to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands, command ye me.
Webster's Bible Translation
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
World English Bible
Thus says Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: "You ask me about the things that are to come, concerning my sons, and you command me concerning the work of my hands!
Young's Literal Translation
Thus said Jehovah, The Holy One of Israel, and his Former: Ask Me of the things coming concerning My sons, Yea, concerning the work of My hands, ye command Me.'
Originally posted by @sonshipThis is a prime example of how you take text out of context and decide what it says without considering the context. No matter how many times you do this and have it proven to you that you're wrong, you refuse to listen to reason and continue in your head-strong illogical way.
I am happy to concede that I notice a number of versions which agree with that kind of rendering that Rajk999 recommends. But I think it is wrong, though I am not a Hebrew scholar. I would go with these renderings.
Some other English renderings of [b] Isa. 45:11New American Standard Bible[/b]
Thus says the LORD, ... "Ask Me about ...[text shortened]... ngs coming concerning My sons, Yea, concerning the work of My hands, ye command Me.'
Consider the context jaywill.
In Isaiah 45:11 God is in effect saying, "I am the maker. Who are YOU to question ME on the destiny of my children or command me on the work of my hands?"
Look at Isaiah 45:9 in which God used a metaphor for the same thing:
<<“Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’?>>
How can you read 45:9 and still not understand what 45:11 is saying? When Jesus spoke of the BLIND, he was speaking of you.
Once again rajk999 has it right and you have it 180 degrees wrong.
Originally posted by @kellyjayWhy don't you stop worrying about mine or anyone else' "feelings" and deal with the topic at hand.
You ever wonder why you spend so much time talking about what someone feels than
actually addressing specifics in these discussions. You have no stinking idea what anyone
hates unless they tell you, and I've never told you I hate the gospel preached by Jesus,
you have stated that there are parts of the Bible you dislike and don't trust. Why don't
you stop worrying about mine or anyone else' "feelings" and deal with the topic at hand.
If you recall it was YOU who originally talked to me about "seeking warm and fuzzy feelings" when I read the Bible and how I don't accept things that I don't "like".
Now you've got the temerity to admonish me for pointing out the fact that the reality is that it is you who does that?
You're such a hypocrite.
Originally posted by @thinkofoneI dont think he is blind. He is one of these... the ones who make a wilful deliberate attempt to deceive ..
This is a prime example of how you take text out of context and decide what it says without considering the context. No matter how many times you do this and have it proven to you that you're wrong, you refuse to listen to reason and continue in your head-strong illogical way.
Consider the context jaywill.
In Isaiah 45:11 God is in effect saying, " ...[text shortened]... D, he was speaking of you.
Once again rajk999 has it right and you have it 180 degrees wrong.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
[13]For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[14]And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
[15]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
28 Sep 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneI know I said something to you about your feelings, I looked didn't see it here, I don't
[b]Why don't you stop worrying about mine or anyone else' "feelings" and deal with the topic at hand.
If you recall it was YOU who originally talked to me about "seeking warm and fuzzy feelings" when I read the Bible and how I don't accept things that I don't "like".
Now you've got the temerity to admonish me for pointing out the fact that the reality is that it is you who does that?
You're such a hypocrite.[/b]
recall the context.
"... you so hate the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. "
This was what I was responding to you about, suggesting I hate the gospel, I do not. I
do think what you preach isn't the gospel, so your version of the text where you leave
out the parts you don't like I dislike a great deal.
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Joshua, so one with God, even commanded the the sun and moon to cooperate with israel carrying out God's will.
Joshua 10:13
This was a dramatic example that God even altered the workings of the universe around assisting His people to carry out His people's conquest of Canaan.
In the New Testament, the church in Jerusalem commanded God in the early days of the church. See Acts 4:23-40.
Their prayer was in response to persecution included these words instructing God to act.
"And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings and grant Your slaves to speak Your word with all boldness, While stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may take place through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.
And when they had so besought, the place in which they were gathered was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness." (Acts 4:29-31)
In their prayer, in their beseeching they commanded God concerning His will and work. And God responded.
28 Sep 18
Originally posted by @rajk999Ay, he goes in and out of it... all this 'petitioning' business is fairly off track
I dont think he is blind. He is one of these... the ones who make a wilful deliberate attempt to deceive ..
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
[13]For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[14]And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
[15]Therefore it is no great thing if ...[text shortened]... transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Originally posted by @kellyjayI guess I didn't really expect you to admit your blatant hypocrisy. You're so dishonest. You claim to be guided by the spirit of truth, but the truth does not abide in you. Your blatant pride plays no small part in this.
I know I said something to you about your feelings, I looked didn't see it here, I don't
recall the context.
"... you so hate the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. "
This was what I was responding to you about, suggesting I hate the gospel, I do not. I
do think what you preach isn't the gospel, so your version of the text where you leave
out the parts you don't like I dislike a great deal.
29 Sep 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneI’ve said this before about you, you are very good at insults and smearing others! I hope
I guess I didn't really expect you to admit your blatant hypocrisy. You're so dishonest. You claim to be guided by the spirit of truth, but the truth does not abide in you. Your blatant pride plays no small part in this.
you realize that those things are not identified as fruit of the Spirit of God. If you could
stay on topic that would be very helpful and necessary, if you were really concerned
about the topics you profess to care about. To date, you have not told me what you use
to divide good scripture according to you, and that which isn't.
I was more than a little disappointed in how you defended your stance against Paul, your
Paul is not Jesus, Luke is not Jesus, and Peter is not Jesus defense, really doesn’t
suggest anything in any way why you reject Paul! What I do see in scripture is that Luke,
Peter, and Jesus don't reject him, instead they defend and accept him. That leaves me
asking, what makes you more important than them that your views should prevail over
theirs? We can all claim everyone here isn't Jesus, so why would that void our ability to
speak truth, if God gave us some?
I have no real expectations of you answering questions, since so many of the questions
put to you by several other people here all go unanswered by you. You avoid addressing
the divinity of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. You have never said that Jesus was your Lord
and Savior that I have seen either. Yet, you want to bash people over some scriptures
you think you know are valid over others. The scriptures you pick and choose you seem
to think the only way they should be interpreted is how you do it, and the way you do it
voids or ignores many other text including things that Jesus says. I don’t know about
you, but for me if you are bashing someone for something you are not doing which is
following the Word of God, isn’t that blatant hypocrisy? Your proclamations that some
scripture are good, and others not so much, sets your views above the Word of God.
29 Sep 18
Originally posted by @kellyjayoh we do learn from you, just not the way you think
I’ve said this before about you, you are very good at insults and smearing others! I hope
you realize that those things are not identified as fruit of the Spirit of God. If you could
stay on topic that would be very helpful and necessary, if you were really concerned
about the topics you profess to care about. To date, you have not told me what you use ...[text shortened]... ns that some
scripture are good, and others not so much, sets your views above the Word of God.
Originally posted by @kellyjayI’ve said this before about you, you are very good at insults and smearing others!
I’ve said this before about you, you are very good at insults and smearing others! I hope
you realize that those things are not identified as fruit of the Spirit of God. If you could
stay on topic that would be very helpful and necessary, if you were really concerned
about the topics you profess to care about. To date, you have not told me what you use ...[text shortened]... ns that some
scripture are good, and others not so much, sets your views above the Word of God.
When it is truth, they aren't "insults" and it isn't "smearing". Your blatant pride is what makes you perceive truth as you do.
If you could stay on topic that would be very helpful and necessary, if you were really concerned about the topics you profess to care about.
YOU repeatedly go off topic when you mindlessly regurgitate the dogma that you've been taught as way to avoid the truth that is contrary to that dogma.
To date, you have not told me what you use
to divide good scripture according to you, and that which isn't.
Actually I have. If your reading comprehension skills were better, perhaps you would have understood it.
I was more than a little disappointed in how you defended your stance against Paul, your
Paul is not Jesus, Luke is not Jesus, and Peter is not Jesus defense, really doesn’t
suggest anything in any way why you reject Paul! What I do see in scripture is that Luke,
Peter, and Jesus don't reject him, instead they defend and accept him. That leaves me
asking, what makes you more important than them that your views should prevail over
theirs? We can all claim everyone here isn't Jesus, so why would that void our ability to
speak truth, if God gave us some?
Read back through that part of our discussion. You clearly were unable to comprehend what I wrote. Better yet, get someone with at least average reading comprehension skills to read it. Perhaps they'll be able to explain it to you.
Your proclamations that some scripture are good, and others not so much, sets your views above the Word of God.
This assertion is an example of "begging the question". It is a logical fallacy. If you didn't have poor critical thinking skills you'd know this.
Once again, set your pride aside and get help. It's never too late.