Your spiritual network

Originally posted by @thinkofone
I fully understand that you don't believe Jesus and that you have many rationalizations for not believing Him. But the bottom line is that you do not believe Him.

You are amongst those who say, "‘The way of the Lord is not right." To which God replied, "Are My ways not right?...Is it not your ways that are not right?"

You didn’t address any of my points but instead resorted to insults.

This is one of the problems with people who believe in a works-based salvation. They focus on themselves, instead of on Christ, and get so judgmental and puffed up with pride over their supposed “good works” that they can’t consider they may be mistaken.

Originally posted by @romans1009
Do you realize your first and second paragraphs contradict each other?

In the first paragraph, you say genuine salvation “inevitably results in a life of good works.”

I agree with this!

But then in the second paragraph, you say good works “are a divine requirement for salvation.”

So in one case you’re saying genuine salvation results in good ...[text shortened]... minutes or hours later before he or she has the opportunity to do any good works. Saved or not?

A Christian who 'doesn't do' good works will not be saved, as it is 'inevitable' that saved people will do good works.

Hey, it's your Bible.

Originally posted by @romans1009
You didn’t address any of my points but instead resorted to insults.

This is one of the problems with people who believe in a works-based salvation. They focus on themselves, instead of on Christ, and get so judgmental and puffed up with pride over their supposed “good works” that they can’t consider they may be mistaken.

Actually I did address your "points". Your "points" amounted to rationalizations for not believing what Jesus said in John 8. You don't think it possible. Seems likely that it's not a coincidence that it's so self-serving for you to think that it's not possible. It's also likely not a coincidence that one of your "points" was a half-truth.

And my post contained no "insults". What could have you possibly misconstrued as an "insult"? Your post, however, contained any number of things that could be construed as insults.

What's really curious is that becker and FMJ would also often "play the victim" and start hurling accusations of "insults" when unable to formulate a cogent argument.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
Actually I did address your "points". Your "points" amounted to rationalizations for not believing what Jesus said in John 8. You don't think it possible. Seems likely that it's not a coincidence that it's so self-serving for you to think that it's not possible. It's also likely not a coincidence that one of your "points" was a half-truth.

And my pos ...[text shortened]... e victim" and start hurling accusations of "insults" when unable to formulate a cogent argument.

Yes, they did do that.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]Even with a really simple construct, Romans1009 cannot see, hear nor understand what Jesus is saying:

In the thread "What does it mean to believe in Jesus" .
You made this kind of summary about the nature of salvation:

Becoming one with God as He was one with God. Ultimately it's about transformation.

I would like to ask you a few questions about "transformation" then, in light of this paragraph.

John 8
"34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
" 31 ...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

ToO:

Clearly Jesus says that His true disciples are made free from committing sin.

If it is all about transformation is this being made free from committing sin also a matter of transformation ? Ie. The disciples of Jesus experiences freedom from being a slave of sin in successive degrees of transformation?

Or do you think He means one either IS a disciple or IS NOT irrespective of degrees of transformation ?

By His definition those who continue to commit sin remain slaves and are not free: "Everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin".

1.) Is the disciple liberated from this slavery by transformation, if "It is about transformation" ?

Yet Romans1009 says things like, "Everyone sins and will continue to sin ...". In which case they are not true disciples, do not know the truth and are not free. They remain slaves.

2.) Is knowing the truth a process of transformation too if ultimately it is "about transformation" ?

For example, might disciple say:

"I knew the truth last month.
By transformation I knew more of the truth last week.
By more transformation I knew even more of the truth yesterday.
If continuing in obedience I hope by transformation to know even more of the truth tomorrow."

3.) If "Ultimately, It is about transformation" could increasing in knowing the truth come to a disciple in this way?

It's such a simple construct, yet Romans1009's slavery to his beliefs render him blind and deaf to the words Jesus is speaking. Romans1009 cannot see, hear nor understand what Jesus is saying.

4.) Is a Christian blind and deaf for believing that transformation is from " glory to glory"? - As Paul writes:

"And the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

And we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting as a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being TRANSFORMED into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

5.) As the man or woman moves from successive degrees of reflecting the glory of the Lord Jesus, is that believer continually a disciple of Jesus ?

Lastly. Second Corinthians 3:17,18 which also seems to say "it is all about transformation" SAYS such transformation is by "the Lord Spirit" and "the Lord [Jesus] IS the Spirit".

6.) So, without the Lord Jesus as the Lord Spirit there is no transformation. Right ? But with the Lord Spirit AND our beholding and reflecting His glory in some way, there IS transformation? Right?

I count about six or seven questions only.

Originally posted by @sonship
In the thread [b]"What does it mean to believe in Jesus" .
You made this kind of summary about the nature of salvation:

Becoming one with God as He was one with God. Ultimately it's about transformation.

I would like to ask you a few questions about "transformation" then, in light of this paragraph.

[quote] John 8
"34Je ...[text shortened]... lory in some way, there IS transformation? Right?

I count about six or seven questions only.

I can only respond to what you wrote about my beliefs, which was not accurate.

Jesus Christ does free us from the power of sin in that we are no longer a slave to sin and sin is no longer our master. But that does not mean we will never sin again.

The difference is, before Jesus Christ, we could not help but sin. Because we were a slave to sin (sin was our master,) we did not have the ability to not sin.

After Jesus Christ freed us from the power of sin, we were no longer helpless or too weak to say “No” to sin. But that doesn’t mean we will never sin again because we may choose to do so. Not be compelled to sin, but choose to sin whether in a moment of weakness or a time when we are out of God’s Word and prayer.

And it’s worth noting that Jesus Christ said in Matthew chapter 5 that being angry with someone is a sin and looking on a woman with lust in your heart is a sin.

Given that (and remembering that coveting is a sin and breaking any commandments concerning our relationship with God are sins,) it is completely delusional to think anyone can live a sin-free life.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
A Christian who 'doesn't do' good works will not be saved, as it is 'inevitable' that saved people will do good works.

Hey, it's your Bible.

Circular reasoning a la the definition of death is being dead.

Originally posted by @romans1009

I can only respond to what you wrote about my beliefs, which was not accurate.

I may have obscured things by quoting ToO's comments on your words. But I was just quoting ThinkOfOne and dealing directly with ThinkOfOne, to be clear.

But please clarify anything you wish about your faith.

Jesus Christ does free us from the power of sin in that we are no longer a slave to sin and sin is no longer our master. But that does not mean we will never sin again.

The difference is, before Jesus Christ, we could not help but sin. Because we were a slave to sin (sin was our master,) we did not have the ability to not sin.

After Jesus Christ freed us from the power of sin, we were no longer helpless or too weak to say “No” to sin. But that doesn’t mean we will never sin again because we may choose to do so. Not be compelled to sin, but choose to sin whether in a moment of weakness or a time when we are out of God’s Word and prayer.

The victory is in the Spirit. And the Spirit must spread and permeate our heart to have more and more influence over our reactions.

Where the Spirit of the Lord IS ... there is freedom.

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)

In my developing experience I take this to mean where the Spirit of the Lord is in my soul, in my heart, there there is liberation and freedom. So the Spirit must spread and permeate and saturate and fill us - moving outward into more and more "where-s" in our being.

In the Spirit is also the killing power.
Many negative things can be terminated - killed off by Christ's death which too is in the Spirit.

So Paul says by the Spirit - put to death the practices of the fallen body.

" ... but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (See Rom. 8:13b)

As you imply, I think, this is a life long matter of maturing.
That is learning to walk by the Spirit, log more and more time in the Spirit, abide in the Spirit, turn to the Spirit in our spirit, and utilize the Holy Spirit to terminate the practices of the fallen body.

I have never met a Christian who boasted that they could not at any time fall into a sinful act. Sinless perfection of the Holiness movement is not reliable. And John warned his audience of believers - to say we do not have sin nature is self deceiving, even though we are Christians for a long time.

"If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)

So on this side of the transfiguration no Christian can boast that she or he no longer has the problem of the sin nature.
As you say and imply, I think, normally we should increase in victory by the living Spirit and the living word.

I don't think though that ThinkOfOne knows anything about this, based on my talks with him over some years here.

Originally posted by @sonship

I can only respond to what you wrote about my beliefs, which was not accurate.

I may have obscured things by quoting ToO's comments on your words. But I was just quoting ThinkOfOne and dealing directly with ThinkOfOne, to be clear.

But please clarify anything you wish about your faith.

[quote]
Jesus Christ does free us from the p ...[text shortened]... ough that ThinkOfOne knows anything about this, based on my talks with him over some years here.

I agree with all that you wrote. The temptation to sin is much harder to deal with when we are not regularly “feeding” the Spirit and increasing its influence in our lives through reading the Bible and prayer. I also have some memory verses I rely on and recite in my mind when I know I’m going into a difficult situation. Here are two I use before I go into a situation where I think I’ll be irritated, and they work wonders:

“Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.“

(Psalm 19:14)

“Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips.”

(Psalm 141:3)

Originally posted by @romans1009

I agree with all that you wrote. The temptation to sin is much harder to deal with when we are not regularly “feeding” the Spirit and increasing its influence in our lives through reading the Bible and prayer. I also have some memory verses I rely on and recite in my mind when I know I’m going into a difficult situation. Here are two I use before I go into a situation where I think I’ll be irritated, and they work wonders:

“Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.“

(Psalm 19:14)

“Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips.”

(Psalm 141:3)

Our experience, you and I, is the same.

i can't live without the word of God.
I can't live without mixing the word of God with my praying spirit to touch the Holy Spirit.

"Feeding" is absolutely the right word. For if we EAT Jesus in this way, we will LIVE by Jesus. It is very simple. But nothing in the world helps us. The world only helps us in the other direction.

So the normal church life is "eating" Jesus in order to live because of the Jesus we are taking in.

"As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)

He lives in us. But we have to take Him up into our soul. We have to enjoy Him - eat Him in His living word.

Beware of Rajk999. He hates this kind of talk and always accuses it as being "mouth worship".

But the Apostle Paul told Timothy to be "nourished" on the words of the faith.

"If you lay these things before the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, being nourished with the words of the faith ... " (1 Timothy 4:6a)

Amen.
It is good to spiritually "network" with a brother of kin experience.

Originally posted by @sonship
In the thread [b]"What does it mean to believe in Jesus" .
You made this kind of summary about the nature of salvation:

Becoming one with God as He was one with God. Ultimately it's about transformation.

I would like to ask you a few questions about "transformation" then, in light of this paragraph.

[quote] John 8
"34Je ...[text shortened]... lory in some way, there IS transformation? Right?

I count about six or seven questions only.

In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, Jesus says the same things over and over again - often in multiple ways.

Jesus makes it clear that His followers are to become righteous. In this regard He speaks in strict dichotomy. One is either righteous or one is not. There is no in-between. There is no half-righteous and half-not-righteous.
1) One is either a "good tree" or a "bad tree". Ones fruit is either all "good" or all "bad". "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
2) One has been "born of the spirit" or one hasn't. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
3) One is either a "slave" or a "son". Everyone who commits sin is a "slave". Everyone else is a "son".

“No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other."

One is either righteous or one is not. One who is righteous no longer commits sin.

Only those who no longer commit sin bear "good fruit".
Only those who no longer commit sin are "born again".
Only those who no longer commit sin are a "son" who "remains in the house forever".
Only those who no longer commit sin have "eternal life".
Only those who no longer commit sin "live in the kingdom".
Only those who no longer commit sin are "true disciples".

Naturally there is a transformation from not being righteous to being righteous, but the only thing that really counts is whether or not the transformation is completed.
.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
In the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, Jesus says the same things over and over again - often in multiple ways.

Jesus makes it clear that His followers are to become righteous. In this regard He speaks in strict dichotomy. One is either righteous or one is not. There is no in-between. There is no half-righteous and half-not-righteous.
...[text shortened]... us, but the only thing that really counts is whether or not the transformation is completed.
.

This is exactly the problem. There is no transformation from a life of sin to a life of righteousness. Instead they say that Jesus makes them righteous ... whether or not they are in fact righteous, they are made righteous.

Originally posted by @rajk999
This is exactly the problem. There is no transformation from a life of sin to a life of righteousness. Instead they say that Jesus makes them righteous ... whether or not they are in fact righteous, they are made righteous.

I take it you're referring to "imputed righteousness". As you've shown, it's nonsensical. They are simultaneously righteous and not righteous.

There are more than a few other beliefs that also boil down to abdicating responsibility for oneself. All of them just as nonsensical, yet they believe them all the same since it is so self-serving to do so. They aren't responsible and forgiveness is there for the asking.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
I take it you're referring to "imputed righteousness". As you've shown, it's nonsensical. They are simultaneously righteous and not righteous.

There are more than a few other beliefs that also boil down to abdicating responsibility for oneself. All of them just as nonsensical, yet they believe them all the same since it is so self-serving to do so. They aren't responsible and forgiveness is there for the asking.

I take it you're referring to "imputed righteousness". As you've shown, it's nonsensical. They are simultaneously righteous and not righteous.

I would like to take up this challenge on a dedicated thread.

It will be called Righteousness - Positional and Dispositional

There we will deal with your lack of understanding of God's salvation further.

Originally posted by @sonship

I take it you're referring to "imputed righteousness". As you've shown, it's nonsensical. They are simultaneously righteous and not righteous.

I would like to take up this challenge on a dedicated thread.

It will be called [b]Righteousness - Positional and Dispositional

There we will deal with your lack of understanding of God's salvation further.[/b]

Did you see my response to your post about "transformation"? I was unsure about what you meant with several of your questions, so instead of trying to get clarification for each one I opted to give you a better idea of the relationship between "transformation" and "being made free from committing sin".

If you still have questions just ask. Hopefully my clarification will make most, if not all, of them unnecessary. .

There we will deal with your lack of understanding of God's salvation further.

More aptly known as my lack of understanding of the perversion of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry that you have embraced.