You will reject this...

Originally posted by twhitehead
Thus creating a time paradox.
1. God knows future.
2. God makes plan, incorporating future.
3. God creates future based on plan.

Of course there is the possibility that there were multiple possible futures, and God chose the one that best fitted his plan, but then since God is responsible for choosing one particular future, he is responsible for pharoah's actions.

Meant to reply to your post but messed up (only on the internet now for ten months). Please see mine immediately above. Thanks.-gb

Originally posted by Nemesio
Just two things:

1) So 'God hardened Pharaoh's heart' really means 'God stood by and did nothing while Pharaoh
made his own decision?

2) Please tell me you're kidding about St Paul and the King James.

Nemesio

Nem, once again with feeling... God does not ever stoop to engage in the coercion or manipulation of the free will

of His creatures, angelic or human. Of course it was a tongue in cheek reference to the simplistic mentality of some,

who do regard the KJ as if it were the inspired verbal plenary original text, to illustrate the language accuracy point.



😀

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Of course it was a tongue in cheek reference to the simplistic mentality of some,who do regard the KJ as if it were the inspired verbal plenary original text, to illustrate the language accuracy point.

Yes, that is exactly what I thought.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Meant to reply to your post but messed up (only on the internet now for ten months). Please see mine immediately above. Thanks.-gb

I don't think you answered Twitehead's argument that as God knows the future, or influences or determines the future, then He must have some responsibility in the Pharoa's behaviour.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
God is a gentleman. He always respects the excercise of your free will and wiould never coerce it. He has revealed

Himself to mankind (in the design and function of the natural world, The First Advent of Christ and in The Word

of Truth) and is offering you a free gift. You have a perfect right to ignore and/or reject it. Choice is up to you.

#1 - God is an inscrutable mystery and works in mysterious ways that are unfathomable to the minds of wee mortals.

#2 - Grampy knows all about God.

Originally posted by telerion
#1 - God is an inscrutable mystery and works in mysterious ways that are unfathomable to the minds of wee mortals.

#2 - Grampy knows all about God.

Tererion, God is not only knowable but desires to be known. Why in the world do you think He revealed Himself and went to the 'trouble'

of the virgin birth, incarnation and substitutionary spirirtual death on our behalf in the first place? Gets even better... He desires a quality

relationship in which He can share His happines (+H), an intimate harmonious rapport relationship based on the integrity of His person

and His power, with all men and women who desire to know Him. Not just in time but for all eternity. He is only inscrutable to those who

choose to reject His provision in favor of winging it on their own with human good, instead of His divine righteousness imputed at rebirth.



🙂

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Nem, once again with feeling... God does not ever stoop to engage in the coercion or manipulation of the free will

of His creatures, angelic or human. Of course it was a tongue in cheek reference to the simplistic mentality of some,

who do regard the KJ as if it were the inspired verbal plenary original text, to illustrate the language accuracy point.



😀

“Here is a piece of candy. You are free to accept it or not. However, if you choose not to accept it, you will be locked in a room till you die.”

Coercive of free will or not?

“I want you to agree to obey me. You are free to refuse. However, if you do refuse, I will have you thrown into jail.”

Coercive of free will or not?

What is your definition of coercion [and manipulation], so that if you say, for any person P, “P will not coerce [manipulate] you”, I have some idea of what kind of behavior to expect from P if I freely choose not to think or act as P would want me to?

I ask, because, quite frankly, I see the threat of life imprisonment—especially on the part of the one who has built the jail and who has decided the sentencing—if I choose wrongly, to be coercive. It also goes to SwissGambit’s continuing point about linguistic Bizarro-ism.

_________________________________________

Note: I fully realize that the above examples are not analogous to all theological/soteriological theories. For example, they would not apply if God is not the creator of hell or the absolute arbiter of judgment. Or if hell is simply analogous to my state before I was even offered any candy: i.e., I remain candyless, but am in no other way diminished.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
substitutionary spirirtual death

Happens to me all the time.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I don't think you answered Twitehead's argument that as God knows the future, or influences or determines the future, then He must have some responsibility in the Pharoa's behaviour.

Let's make it real up close and personal. Suppose tonight you present the greatest gift imaginable (which cost you dearly but which you wish

to give freely and without strings) to a son or daughter or close friend. After brief consideration, your gift is refused with or without some

feeble explanation (just a deaf ear, callous outright rejection of your extradordinarily valuable gift). You have any further responsibility?


🙂

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Let's make it real up close and personal. Suppose tonight you present the greatest gift imaginable (which cost you dearly but which you wish

to give freely and without strings) to a son or daughter or close friend. After brief consideration, your gift is refused with or without some

feeble explanation (just a deaf ear, callous outright rejection of your extradordinarily valuable gift). You have any further responsibility?


🙂

But, unlike I, God knows that the gift will be refused; He created the situation where the gift will be refused; He created the refusers; and He made the refusal part of a grand plan to make a covenant with the Hebrews (and not even I can claim that magnitude of achievement.)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
God does not ever stoop to engage in the coercion or manipulation of the free will

This is a 'yes' or 'no' question. Your answers attest to the vagaries of one of your theological
tenets.

So 'God hardened Pharaoh's heart' really means 'God stood by and did nothing while Pharaoh
made his own decision?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Conrau K
But, unlike I, God knows that the gift will be refused; He created the situation where the gift will be refused; He created the refusers; and He made the refusal part of a grand plan to make a covenant with the Hebrews (and not even I can claim that magnitude of achievement.)

And, to follow your line here: from God’s omniscient perspective, my refusal might seem incredibly stupid or perverse, and my reasons feeble; from my limited human perspective, however, my reasons might seem to me to be quite logical and correct.

At the most basic level, I—like others on here—find it logical and correct not to believe that there is such a being as our (in)famous O-O-O God, regardless of what gifts might be said to be proffered by such a being. Although it has been refuted on other grounds, I would find believing based on something like Pascal’s wager to be dishonest.

Maybe that is why some theists presumptively deny that I can honestly refuse to believe in their god: otherwise, they might find themselves in the position of arguing that such a god condemns me for not believing what I cannot believe without violating my own integrity.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Tererion, God is not only knowable but desires to be known. Why in the world do you think He revealed Himself and went to the 'trouble'

of the virgin birth, incarnation and substitutionary spirirtual death on our behalf in the first place? Gets even better... He desires a quality

relationship in which He can share His happines (+H), an intimate h ...[text shortened]... their own with human good, instead of His divine righteousness imputed at rebirth.



🙂

So in one post you claim that the problems with translation mean that it is incredibly easy to misinterpret whether it was gods intention or pharoahs intention for the pharoahs heart to be hardened, yet now you make such enormous claims as to the intentions of this god with regards to origin, desires, integrity etc.
You are simply using the potential (an admittedly large potential) misinterpretation of intentions to ignore those bit which you don't like, yet do not apply the same rigorous rejection of intentions with the bits you do like.
You're picking and choosing, which is ultimately the same as not having the god in the first place. Except that when I acknowledge the non-existence of god, I know that I have to have justifications for my statements, whereas you only need a book full of potential mistranslations...

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Always rains in January. Moving first, white has a slight advantage. Average human height is 5' 10". First is relative because it's only true

in certain locales. Second may sometimes be true, in a technical sense, between players at one level of competence but not at others.

Third may be true as a sweeping generalization but it's conditional with ration, present expectancy) on earth is finite. Three examples of absolute truth.



🙂

So when you say "'something' is true", you might not be telling the truth? You are away beyond me....

However perhaps you can enlighten me. In Kings 1, chapter 7, it says,
'23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it. 24 Below the rim, gourds encircled it—ten to a cubit. The gourds were cast in two rows in one piece with the Sea.'

So relative truth is when Solomen says that Pi = 3, and 'better' truth is when maths teachers say pi = 3.14159?

Originally posted by Conrau K
But, unlike I, God knows that the gift will be refused; He created the situation where the gift will be refused; He created the refusers; and He made the refusal part of a grand plan to make a covenant with the Hebrews (and not even I can claim that magnitude of achievement.)

Think you miss the central point. Perhaps my failure to use language plainly. God provides all human beings with volition. Though He knows

the choices we will all make, allowing them to be made is critical to the purpose of human history. Decisions have major consequences.



🙂