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Originally posted by lucifershammer
Does that mean you have control over Him?

One of the ways in which a person can deal with anger is by
recognizing that it is a response to something; unless you are
unwell, anger requires a stimulus.

Upon recognizing that anger is a reaction among many possible
ones, one can liberate him/herself from anger by choosing other
reactions. Becoming angry is to let the angering thing control your
response, rather than your choosing a response.

So, yes, when someone makes angry, I am letting them control
me because I am failing to recognize that I have many other
emotional responses from which to choose.

Nemesio

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Why do you say the rapist cannot be your brother?

Do you believe that a sinner cannot be your brother?
Do you believe that a terrible, terrible sinner cannot be your brother?

Do you believe that all men are sinners?

Do you believe that you have no brothers?

Do you wish to retract your claim that a rapist is not your brother?

Dr. S

...[text shortened]... musing that a person such as yourself who believes in pre-destination would issue an imperative.

Why do you say the rapist cannot be your brother?

I did not say he can not be my brother. I said he was not my brother.

Do you believe that a sinner cannot be your brother? No.

Do you believe that a terrible, terrible sinner cannot be your brother? No.

Do you believe that all men are sinners? Yes.

Do you believe that you have no brothers? No.

Do you wish to retract your claim that a rapist is not your brother?

I did not say a rapist is not my brother. I said "He was not your brother if he raped and stabbed his daughter."

If a person is truly saved, they are said to be regenerate. Their minds have been transformed so that they can live a life of love and obedience to God. While he is still a sinner, and will still stumble at times, there will still be a change in that person. They will hate their old sinful nature, and strive to live for God. A person thus regenerated will not likely commit sins so heinous as murder and rape.

Now, what you missed was that I never said a person who has committed such a terrible crime is un-savable. I said that that person was not a brother - he was not a true believer - when he committed the crime.

Originally posted by Coletti
I said that that person was not a brother - he was not a true believer - when he committed the crime.

Fine. Shift all of my questions to the past tense, to the time when the act was being committed.

Do you believe that no person currenty sinning can be your brother in Christ?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Fine. Shift all of my questions to the past tense, to the time when the act was being committed.

Do you believe that no person currenty sinning can be your brother in Christ?

All my brothers in Christ are sinners - none do not sin.

Originally posted by Coletti
All my brothers in Christ are sinners - none do not sin.

Are you withdrawing your claim about the rapist? If not, explain why he could not have been your brother in Christ while others sinners, while sinning, can be your brothers in Christ.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Are you withdrawing your claim about the rapist? If not, explain why he could not have been your brother in Christ while others sinners, while sinning, can be your brothers in Christ.

I did. Read the post.

Originally posted by Coletti
I did. Read the post.

I didn't understand your explanation.

How can you admit that all of your Christian brothers are sinners, while asserting that one particular sinner could not possibly have been your brother by virtue of his sinfulness?

Can one of your current brothers ever commit the sin of rape? If so, would he maintain his brotherhood during and after the act?

Do your brothers temporarily lose their brotherhood during a sinful act and then regain it?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I didn't understand your explanation.

How can you admit that all of your Christian brothers are sinners, while asserting that one particular sinner could not possibly have been your brother by virtue of his sinfulness?

Can one of your current brothers ever commit the sin of rape? If so, would he maintain his brotherhood during and after the ac ...[text shortened]...

Do your brothers temporarily lose their brotherhood during a sinful act and then regain it?

If someone claims to be a brother in Christ, and he commits a sin of the order of rape or murder, then it is doubtful he was ever saved.

Or if he continues sinning in a lesser way, and he knows this, and if he does not repent, then he was never saved.

A Christian will show signs of sanctification - a desire for studying the Word, a striving to be more obedient to God's commands, basically signs of spiritual growth.

A person who has been regenerated, will change with time. This does not prove they are saved, nor does occasional back-sliding prove they are reprobate. But some evidence is stronger then others. Murder and rape are strong evidence of a lack of being saved.

One can not lose his state of being saved. If a person is regenerate (born again), there is no going back. But it is not always easy to tell when someone is truly saved or not. Christians will sin, if less often. And the reprobate will not always show clear signs of being unregenerate.

Some people have false conversions - emotional experiences that make them "feel" saved. And some are already saved, but will not recall exactly the moment they became true believers.

If you were to hear a gunshot, and walked into a closed room, and if in that room you find two people, one is dead by gunshot, and the other is holding a smoking gun, then one may reasonably infer that the gun holder shot the dead man. You can not prove it absolutely from this, but it's strong evidence. So one may infer that a person who commits a murder or rape, or shows other strong evidence of being lost, is very likely lost.

Originally posted by Coletti
If someone claims to be a brother in Christ, and he commits a sin of the order of rape or murder, then it is doubtful he was ever saved.

But how is that compatible with this: "All my brothers in Christ are sinners - none do not sin."

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
But how is that compatible with this: "All my brothers in Christ are sinners - none do not sin."

How is it incompatible?

Originally posted by Coletti
How is it incompatible?

You say that it is doubtful that the rapist was ever your brother by virtue of the fact that he has sinned.

You say that all of your brothers sin.

Choose one of those brothers. Seeing that he has sinned, why don't you doubt his brotherhood as you do that of rapist?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
You say that it is doubtful that the rapist was ever your brother by virtue of the fact that he has sinned.

You say that all of your brothers sin.

Choose one of those brothers. Seeing that he has sinned, why don't you doubt his brotherhood as you do that of rapist?

I believe he is setting up a barometer of sinfulness. A person who
is inconsiderate and calls people 'idiot' is more likely to be saved
than a murderer. A person whose entire sin-life is tiny white lies
is more likely to be saved than a person who is a serial rapist, he
would say.

I'm not sure there is a theological precedent for this (but I'm not sure
there isn't, either).

Nemesio

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
You say that it is doubtful that the rapist was ever your brother by virtue of the fact that he has sinned.

You say that all of your brothers sin.

Choose one of those brothers. Seeing that he has sinned, why don't you doubt his brotherhood as you do that of rapist?

I said it is doubtful a rapist was ever my brother by virtue of the magnitude of the sin he committed. This is because a person who is saved will almost always show some change in their lives and avoid even minor sins. It is very unlikely that a regenerate person would commit rape or murder, even if they will still sin in lesser ways.

Originally posted by Coletti
I said it is doubtful a rapist was ever my brother by virtue of the magnitude of the sin he committed. This is because a person who is saved will almost always show some change in their lives and avoid even minor sins. It is very unlikely that a regenerate person would commit rape or murder, even if they will still sin in lesser ways.

Are all sins worthy of the final punishment? Does God treat some sins as worthy of Hellfire and others not worthy of Hellfire?

Originally posted by Coletti
I said it is doubtful a rapist was ever my brother by virtue of the magnitude of the sin he committed.

Well, that's what I originally asked. Why didn't you just say so?

Is disobeying the 9th Commandment less egregious than disobeying the 5th Commandment?

In God's eyes, are sins relatively bad or all equally bad?

I understand that in man's eyes they are relative. But that should be irrelevant regarding Christian brotherhood, if all brothers sin, and if all sins - by virtue of their being sin, not by virtue of any harm they bring to humans - are equally displeasing to God.