Witness Lee and the Lord's Recovery Movement

@sonship said

If you are seeking to project any of this onto me in any way, just say which bits.

Usual paranoia.

No, not paranoia. I am taking at face value what you appear to be doing and responding accordingly. I said this: "I understand that most people believe they "know" God and I understand their reasons for doing so."

You then - in a Quote & Reply - started with what you called "nostalgia". You said: "I distinctly remember that when I was an unbeliever I THOUGHT for certain I KNEW what was REALLY going on in people who said there is God. I distinctly remember that attitude - 'Poor guys. They don't know what is going on in them. But I know. I understand what is REALLY going on in them.' "

If you believe that your "nostalgia" is not relevant to the sentence I posted and which you replied to, you only have to say so.

@sonship said
Dasa, Trump, lemonlime ... anyone else you want to guilt by association me with ?

If you don't comprehend the Trump-Whistleblower analogy vis a vis Dariusz, so be it. If you don't comprehend the point that's being made when I compare the deterrence-coercion effect of superstitious threats of eternal torture to the superstitious threats of being reincarnated as a cockroach, then so be it. If you don't comprehend the reference to lemon lime's debating gambit back in the day, so be it.

@Dariusz

The speaker up to about 1:30 says the local church "movement" was very living and exciting and positive basically, if not naive in the 70s - 80s and "no longer is".

I would say the local churches have not changed. He changed maybe. It is still exciting, less naive probably as we have been through a number of "storms". After 45 years it is STILL exciting and loving. Less naive, after having been through some things, for sure.

In those days I saw also people come into corporate living who stole and moved away.

In those days people came into the church life and left when they couldn't score on a romantic relationship. Sour grapes.

In those days I saw people come in who were ambitious for position. And when it didn't turn out their way, they left. Sour grapes

In those days I saw people come and decide their fun ran out. Big deal. Even Jesus had disciples who no longer decided to follow and withdrew.

That someone moved in a brother's corporate living situation and latter decided things were better doing something else, is no proof the local church life was bad.

I know a guy enthusiastic about joining the Marines only to leave after a change of heart.
People drop out of schools, relationships, marriages, friendships, companies, sports teams. This in and of itself doesn't prove much.

Did we make some mistakes in those days? Yes, we made some mistakes. God doesn't drop a move of the Spirit so easily because some offense happened or some mistakes were made.

Part of maturing in the Spirit is learning to forgive. I can assure you the speaker ALSO offended somebody himself along the way.

The speaker says the local churches were very much devoted to God and to the Bible.

Nothing changed in that regard. We're still devoted to God and to the Bible.

The speaker says that latter the movement became self aggrandizing and teaching centered. He didn't like hearing that "We were the one true movement of God on the earth."

Well let's compare with something that happened that was called "The Restoration" among "the church of Christ Disciples". These were followers of Charles Campbell. Now if you have even been to a Church of Christ Disciples congretation you may hear something like they are the only true church.

Of course they do not consider you a Christian brother UNTIL you are baptized into THEIR water - with an understanding, that that immersion is for the remission of sins. You are not saved unless you are baptized BY them in THEIR water.

The local churches believe all regenerated Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ. There is a difference between saying - "We are the only church" and saying "We are ONLY the church".


To say "We are only the church" means take away all the extra traditions that mean THIS kind of church and THAT kind of church, and just be what we are - the church. This is not to be exclusive. This is to simply discard the extras that have crept into Christianity and simply MERELY be what we are as the New Testament teaches - churches in cities - receiving all believers ( if they want to be received ) as members of the church.

No other names or designations are needed. We just be what we are.

And for many posts I have asked Dariuzs - "Did Witness Lee teach that only local churches which receive his messages, invite him to speak, and coordinate with him, could be considered local churches?"

The answer is NO. Lee taught clearly, saints on the local ground can be the local church even if they do not like to be under the ministry of Witness Lee. That is not cultish or authoritarian.

I'll work through more of the first video latter.

@Dariusz

Around 3:57 the speaker does fairly represent the churches view of the seven churches as being a prophet outline of the history of the church. He also says that the local churches considered themselved Philadelphia or WANTED to be.

Okay, What is wrong then with WANTING to be in the experience of Philadelphia where the most prevailing matter is "brotherly love" - the meaning of the word Philadelphia? Does the speaker mean Christians OUGHT NOT want to emulate brotherly love such as exemplifies Philadelphia?

Now Watchman Nee did indeed tie the fallen recovered church - Laodicea to the Brethren movement. However, anyone who reads the last chapter of The Orthodoxy of the Church should plainly see that Watchman Nee is sternly WARNING his audience that "essentially the same thing could happen to us."

I take issue with the speaker. There is nothing AUTOMATIC about the local churches HAVE to be Philadephia. They aspire to be and they are warned that they could become proud, backslidden, ... SO BEWARE. There is not "WE HAVE ARRIVED. WE ARE SECURE. IT COULDN'T HAPPEN TO US." There is not that tone at all in Nee's final conclusion on the church of Laodicea" which means "the opinion of the people " .

First we should see Watchman Nee had this attitude of warning.
Then we should see that Witness Lee continued in the same spirit of warning.

First - Brother Nee -

Now we will speak of the last church. We have seen the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestant churches, and the movement of the brothers. Among these, God has chosen the movement of the brothers. Thyatira entirely failed. Although Sardis was better than Thyatira, the Lord still rebuked them. Only Philadelphia did not receive a word of rebuke. The Lord's promise is in Philadelphia. (But Philadelphia also has a calling for overcomers.) If it were up to us, we would have stopped with Philadelphia and written nothing more. However, in these churches the Lord prophesies concerning the condition of the church; therefore, it is necessary to take a step further to Laodicea, with which everyone is most familiar. If you asked which church Laodicea refers to, many could not answer.

[My bolding]

We can meet Philadelphia today, and we can also meet Laodicea. Both are quite alike in their position as the church. The difference is that Philadelphia has love while Laodicea has pride. There is no difference in outward appearance; the only difference is that Laodicea is a proud Philadelphia. I do not wish to relate many things concerning them. I will just give you some illustrations. A brother among them once said, "Is there anything spiritual that cannot be found among us?'' A certain brother, after seeing a new magazine, said, "What new thing can it give us? Is there anything that we do not have?'' He returned the magazine without reading it any further. Another brother said, "Since the Lord has given us the greatest light, we should be satisfied; if we read what others have written it is a waste of time.'' Another said, "What do others have that we do not have?'' And still another said, "What others have, we have, but what we have, others may not have.'' When we hear this kind of talk, we should immediately recall what the Lord says regarding those who say, "I am rich.'' Oh, how careful we must be that we may not become Laodicea!

Only Laodicea can boast. A person who departs from the position of Philadelphia cannot go back to Sardis. Asking a brother to go back to Sardis is an impossibility; he can only go on to be Laodicea. Laodicea also does not continue the line of the orthodoxy of the apostles. She goes beyond the line of the apostles. They are those who have vain knowledge; they have no life and are self-satisfied, self-exalted, and conceited.

"And do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked'' (v. 17). What they say is really quite true: I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing! Indeed, they are marvelous before God. They have reason to boast. We acknowledge that there are many things in their midst of which they may boast. But it is better to leave this to the feeling of others and not to feel it ourselves; let others know about it, not ourselves. It would indeed be good if others say so; but if we say so, it is not good. Spiritual things must not be boasted of. If one boasts of his riches concerning worldly things, the money will not fly away nor will the amount decrease; but spiritual things vanish away when you boast of them.

You may notice that there is one poster here who always tries to goad me to boast. This is his subtle attempt to maneuver me into self bragging. Can you see how very wicked this is?

It is one thing to boast in the Lord in faith believing in His promises. It is another to succumb to the temptation to boast in ourselves in pride.

From the same section on the church of the opinion of the people - Laodicea

1.)

If you do not know you are growing, you are blessed.

2.)

The Laodiceans are too clear in the estimate of themselves; they have too much. In God's eyes they are blind, poor, and naked. That is why we must learn the lesson.

Does he say "We in the local churches are beyond the need to learn this lesson?" No. He warns that we NEED to learn not to fall into that state.

3.)

Concerning poverty, the Lord said, "I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire that you may be rich'' (Rev. 3:18). Although they are rich in doctrines, the Lord sees them as still being poor. They must have living faith; otherwise, God's Word is useless to them. ...

When the word increases, you must have faith that mingles with the words you have heard. You must pass through all manner of trials so that the words which you have heard will be useful in a practical way. Thus, you must buy gold tried in the fire. You must learn to trust even while in tribulation; then you will really be rich.

[my bolding]

4.)

We may treat others with a feast, yet it may not be "white.'' If we do it just for the sake of maintaining the glory of our group, that cannot be counted; if it springs from a motive that is even meaner than this, there is even a lesser reason for it to be counted. It is not clean enough. The Lord desires that we have a clean purpose and a clean motive to work for Him. There are many activities and many motives in which we sense many impurities once we touch them; they are not white. "That the shame of your nakedness may not be manifested.'' When we walk before God, we should not be shameful.

The next time you see FMF goad and taunt Christians Ie. - "Well how duplicated are you? Well, is living water flowing from you now? Well, have you arrived? Well, are you mature yet? What percentage are you like Jesus?"

These are questions designed to entrap believers into boasting in themselves that they MAY be the fallen Laodicea. That is the skeptic is trying to entrap the believer into lukewarmness and self satisfaction. How unbelievably evil is the motive.

Without touching the Holy Spirit, you cannot deal with spiritual things. It is not a matter of how much you have heard. Many times it is merely an increase in doctrine, an increase in knowledge, yet without seeing anything before God. So you must learn one thing before God—you have to buy eyesalve. Only seeing by myself is really seeing. Seeing is the basis of what has already been gained and is the basis of seeing again.

"As many as I love I rebuke and discipline; be zealous therefore and repent'' (v. 19). The words spoken previously are rebukes. But the Lord shows us that He rebukes and chastens in this manner because He loves. Therefore, be zealous. What should we do? Repent. First, we must repent. Repentance is not just an individual matter; the church also must repent.

There is nothing in Nee's tone suggesting that his audience if forever BEYOND the reach of these faults. He is warning, exhorting, shepherding us that we do not become the fallen recovered church.

Oh, how careful we must be that we may not become Laodicea!

In the Conclusion section of The Orthodoxy of the Church -

So we should learn that regardless of the condition the church, whenever any church has a problem, if we are faithful before the Lord, we will discover what we must do. The Lord shows us the way to deal with the problem. The Lord says He is the way, He is the reality, and He is the life (John 14:6). So no matter in which epistle and under what circumstances we are, the Lord does not want us to pay attention to the situation, however bad it may be; rather, He wants us to see who He is. Revelation recovers the seeing. Concerning the knowledge of the Lord, we see it by revelation just once. Once we see it, all failures pass away. We must see before God that the difficulty of the church is quite urgent. In this situation we cry for help, but the Lord says that only those who know Him have help. In each epistle the Lord makes one statement about who He is. Will such a Lord as He be able to deal with this situation?

There is nothing here suggesting the local churches under Nee's ministry are a utopian situation with no need to do anything but automatically remain blessed.

There is the tone of taking heed, being cautious, of not wanting to repeat the past, to beware, vigilant.

So I take issue with the video speaker's portrayal of the local churches as secure in feeling history could not be repeated with them.

So did Witness Lee have the same attitude? Let's check his similar work.

From Life Study of Revelation by Witness Lee [my bolding]

II. THE CHURCH’S CONDITION
A. Neither Cold nor Hot—Lukewarm
In verses 15 through 17 we see the condition of the church in Laodicea. In verses 15 and 16 the Lord says, “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about to vomit you out of My mouth.” Once the recovered church becomes degraded, it is lukewarm—neither cold nor hot. This is the actual condition of so many Brethren assemblies today. This should be a warning to us. Once we become lukewarm, we are not fitting for the Lord’s move and shall be vomited out of His mouth.

"This should be a warning to us" Lee said. "US" is himself and the believers under his ministry.

C. Wretched
In the eyes of the Lord, the degraded assemblies are wretched because they are proud of being rich in the vain knowledge of doctrines, but are sorely poor in the experience of the riches of Christ.

D. Miserable
The degraded recovered church is also miserable because she is naked, blind, and full of shame and darkness.

E. Poor
The proud degraded church is poor in the experience of Christ and in the spiritual reality of God’s economy. She mostly cares for vain knowledge, but scarcely cares for the living experiences of Christ. This is real poverty, the poverty that makes her wretched and miserable.

F. Blind
In the eyes of the Lord, the church in Laodicea is not only poor in the riches of Christ, but also blind in genuine spiritual things. She does not have true spiritual insight. Although she has some amount of knowledge about spiritual things, she has no insight.

G. Naked
We Christians have all received Christ as our objective righteousness to cover us like a robe. This is for our justification before God. After being justified in Christ, we need to live by Christ and to live out Christ, that He may be our subjective righteousness as another splendid robe to cover our daily walk. Due to the lack of the subjective experience of Christ, the degraded recovered church is naked in the eyes of the Lord. The vain knowledge of doctrines vanishes under the flaming eyes of the Lord, leaving those who hold them nakedly exposed. Only the experienced Christ can be our covering under His judging eyes.

Lee does not say the need only belongs to OTHERS. He says "WE" including himself, NEED.

, we need to live by Christ and to live out Christ, that He may be our subjective righteousness as another splendid robe to cover our daily walk.

The speaker in the video falsely portrays the Christians meeting as local churches as thinking that we have no need for vigilance so as not to repeat the degradation in church history with others.

Lee continues to help the saints in the local churches to avoid the fall into lukewarm Laodicea.

The degraded recovered church has the knowledge of the doctrines concerning Christ, but not much living faith to partake of the divine element of Christ. She needs to pay the price to gain the golden faith through the fiery trials that she may participate in the real “gold,” which is Christ Himself as the life element to His Body. Thus, she may become a pure golden lampstand (1:20) for the building of the golden New Jerusalem (21:18).

If we have experience, we shall realize that all three things which the Lord counsels the church in Laodicea to buy—gold, white garments, and eyesalve—are just the Lord Himself. As we have seen, in typology, or in biblical figure, gold signifies two things: God’s divine nature and the living faith by which we appreciate and appropriate the divine nature. These two things are combined. If we do not have the living faith to appreciate and apply the divine nature, it cannot be ours. The divine nature can only become our enjoyment through our living faith. Christ is the embodiment of the divine nature, and He is also our living faith. If we have faith, then we can participate in the divine nature. This means that we must have Christ. We must pay the cost and tell the Lord, saying, “Lord, I have much knowledge of the Bible truths, but I admit that I don’t have much of You. Lord, I would rather have You than mere knowledge or vain teachings. Lord, You are the real gold, the embodiment of the divine nature. In order to appreciate and apply this divine nature, I need living faith. Yet, Lord, I don’t have this living faith, but I look unto You. Lord, be my living faith. I want to live by You as my faith, the faith of the Son of God” (Gal. 2:20). If you speak to the Lord in this way, He will immediately say, “All right, if you would gain Me, you must pay the price. There is a certain thing that I want you to drop because it is a hindrance and a frustration from My becoming your enjoyment.” Dropping these things is the paying of the price. Many of us have experienced the Lord in this way. Often the Lord has said, “I am here. Do you want Me, or do you want that thing? If you want to keep that thing, then I shall stay away. Your hands are full of many things. You must drop them, empty your hands, and then grasp Me. Then you will have Me as your enjoyment.” Only when we pay the price can we gain Christ.

There is humility here and not the arrogance portrayed by the speaker in your video. The church life did not change. He changed somehow.

The ministry of Witness Lee was not that his audience had NO NEED to pay the price, but that they indeed did. These messages I believe were spoken around 1978.

Look what he advises the believers in the Lord's recovery to pray.

“Lord, I have much knowledge of the Bible truths, but I admit that I don’t have much of You. Lord, I would rather have You than mere knowledge or vain teachings. Lord, You are the real gold, the embodiment of the divine nature. In order to appreciate and apply this divine nature, I need living faith. Yet, Lord, I don’t have this living faith, but I look unto You. Lord, be my living faith. I want to live by You as my faith, the faith of the Son of God” (Gal. 2:20). If you speak to the Lord in this way, He will immediately say, “All right, if you would gain Me, you must pay the price.

Read more at - https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=32B40E

And here we see an excellent example of the “Blog Defence”.

@divegeester

I write a lot, and you come by and drop off some one liner you think is SO GOOD. I'm not having it. Read what I wrote if you want to talk with me.

What I write is relevant and meaningful. If you're too lazy to digest it then go find some better use of your time. Life is short. You owe it to yourself.