Originally posted by josephw
[b]"How about that we exist is nothing more than a transient by-product of the non caring mechanisms of a large, wholly natural universe?"

Prove it. Give me a reasoned response as to why you think the universe is solely matter.[/b]

Just so you don't shift the goalposts too far, let us recall that your purpose for this thread is to ascertain our reasons for not believing in god:
"I would like to hear some serious, mature, reasoned responses from those who believe there is no God as to why you think there is no God."

Having done that, I say firstly that there is no burden on my part to prove the universe is not solely matter, given (a) all I can perceive is natural and (b) it is you coming along and proposing this is not the case.
Secondly you are asked us why we think there is no god, not our proof there is no god!!!
If I ask you why you don't believe in the tooth fairy is it implied that I would be demanding a proof of it's non existence???

Originally posted by Agerg
Just so you don't shift the goalposts too far, let us recall that your purpose for this thread is to ascertain our reasons for not believing in god:
"I would like to hear some serious, mature, reasoned responses from those who believe there is no God as to why you think there is no God."

Having done that, I say firstly that there is no burden on my ...[text shortened]... in the tooth fairy is it implied that I would be demanding a proof of it's non existence???

I'm simply asking for reasoned responses as to why you think there is no God.

Why do you think there is no creator?

Originally posted by josephw
I'm simply asking for reasoned responses as to why you think there is no God.

Why do you think there is no creator?

Well ok...my first reason - my first lack of requirement to invoke the notion of a god (that being about holy books) has been left unchallenged.

My second reason is that there is no evidence of gods or any supernatural phenomenon. Why should I believe in something without evidence or basis for it...should I believe in the tooth fairy?

So presently I still have no reason to take the idea of some god seriously.

Originally posted by Agerg
Well ok...my first reason - my first lack of requirement to invoke the notion of a god (that being about holy books) has been left unchallenged.

My second reason is that there is no evidence of gods or any supernatural phenomenon. Why should I believe in something without evidence or basis for it...should I believe in the tooth fairy?

So presently I still have no reason to take the idea of some god seriously.

"So presently I still have no reason to take the idea seriously."

So the existence of the universe isn't an idea to take seriously?

You are still not on topic. You think there is no creator. Why?

Saying you see no evidence is a lame excuse.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"So presently I still have no reason to take the idea seriously."

So the existence of the universe isn't an idea to take seriously?

You are still not on topic. You think there is no creator. Why?

Saying you see no evidence is a lame excuse.[/b]

So the existence of the universe isn't an idea to take seriously?
Oh I take the existence of the universe very seriously indeed!!! I have no choice but to believe the universe exists! To believe otherwise would be madness!

You are still not on topic. You think there is no creator. Why?
I am very much on topic joseph, you're asking me why I don't believe in your god and I'm trying to explain my reasons, one point at a time. So far we are wrangling over why I should even consider the proposal that any gods exist. To recap:

I don't see any truth in holy books, and I don't see any indication or evidence of the supernatual.
**So what compels me to introduce the notion of God???**

Saying you see no evidence is a lame excuse.
You're trying to take this point in isolation josephw...poor tactic ;]

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]So the existence of the universe isn't an idea to take seriously?
Oh I take the existence of the universe very seriously indeed!!! I have no choice but to believe the universe exists! To believe otherwise would be madness!

You are still not on topic. You think there is no creator. Why?
I am very much on topic joseph, you're asking me why I d ...[text shortened]... lame excuse.[/b]
You're trying to take this point in isolation josephw...poor tactic ;][/b]

I don't see any truth in holy books, and I don't see any indication or evidence of the supernatual.
**So what compels me to introduce the notion of God???**

So what you're saying is that you want concrete evidence.

And you think that that evidence should appear before your eyes.

You're looking at it now. But I'm not interested in proving the existence of a creator in this thread. What I'm looking for is reasoned replies as to why some think there is no creator, but it is apparent by the lack of replies that there are no reasons. Apparently folks just choose not to believe in a creator and make the excuse that there is no evidence.

The very fact that the universe exists is evidence enough.

But about Holy Books. You are willfully ignorant. But if you want to believe other books go ahead. You know for a fact they where written by men. So believe them. You seem to have no problem with that.

Originally posted by josephw
I would like to hear some serious, mature, reasoned responses from those who believe there is no God as to why you think there is no God.

Let's take it slow and easy.

There is no need for a god. Everything is explainable without a god. To have a god to believe in complicate things. That's one of my reasons to not believe in the christian god.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]I don't see any truth in holy books, and I don't see any indication or evidence of the supernatual.
**So what compels me to introduce the notion of God???**

So what you're saying is that you want concrete evidence.

And you think that that evidence should appear before your eyes.

You're looking at it now. But I'm not interested in proving th a fact they where written by men. So believe them. You seem to have no problem with that.[/b]

It appears you're baiting people into providing a dossier of reasons for their lack of belief in one fell swoop so you can isolate one particular objection, obfuscate through asking a myriad of poorly related questions and then claim victory. Looks like you've brought an end to this discussion!

I'll still humour some of your other quibbles though!

So what you're saying is that you want concrete evidence.
Yes

And you think that that evidence should appear before your eyes.
Yes!...would it inconvenience your omnipotent eternalgod to do this?

The very fact that the universe exists is evidence enough.
I already addressed this point on the first page.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
There is no need for a god. Everything is explainable without a god. To have a god to believe in complicate things. That's one of my reasons to not believe in the christian god.

You need God.

And you know it.

Originally posted by josephw
I would like to hear some serious, mature, reasoned responses from those who believe there is no God as to why you think there is no God.

Let's take it slow and easy.

I have no idea if a god exists. But I see no reason to believe one does. Unless a theist can present some compelling evidence to the contrary, I will assume that there is no god. But I do not presume to know that.

Originally posted by rwingett
I have no idea if a god exists. But I see no reason to believe one does. Unless a theist can present some compelling evidence to the contrary, I will assume that there is no god. But I do not presume to know that.

Good, honest reply.

Would you agree that the existence of the universe is credible and compelling evidence for the existence of a creator?

If not, why not?

Originally posted by josephw

The very fact that the universe exists is evidence enough.

Not true. Of course the universe exists. The fact that we are discussing this requires the pre-existence of the universe. If the universe did not exist, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The fact that the universe exists is evidence only of the existence of the universe.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Not true. Of course the universe exists. The fact that we are discussing this requires the pre-existence of the universe. If the universe did not exist, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The fact that the universe exists is evidence only of the existence of the universe.

"The fact that the universe exists is evidence only of the existence of the universe."

Is that so? Did you always exist? Did you have a beginning? Was there a cause for your existence? Do you think the universe exists without a cause?

Originally posted by josephw
Good, honest reply.

Would you agree that the existence of the universe is credible and compelling evidence for the existence of a creator?

If not, why not?

Obviously not. Positing a god as the creator of the universe raises far more questions than it answers. Plus what we know of the universe indicates that it behaves exactly as one would expect if there were no god.

Originally posted by rwingett
Obviously not. Positing a god as the creator of the universe raises far more questions than it answers. Plus what we know of the universe indicates that it behaves exactly as one would expect if there were no god.

It behaves exactly as one would if there were no God?

Then please explain how you think it would behave if there were a God.