Originally posted by KnightWulfePlease do. Specifically where someone teaches "God is doing this to punish you (sing.)".
Something within the Christian Doctrine that supports it? How about 5000 years of teaching that God is to be feared? The teaching that God is responsible for all and that all things happen for a reason? How about the vile Inquisition or worse, the Spanish Inquisition? How about the teaching of the Roman Catholics that true piety can only be achieved thro ...[text shortened]... h of the religion in 3000 B.C. and the followers of Yaweh until the many denominations of today.
Originally posted by KnightWulfeYou're in for it now, KW.
Something within the Christian Doctrine that supports it? How about 5000 years of teaching that God is to be feared? The teaching that God is responsible for all and that all things happen for a reason? How about the vile Inquisition or worse, the Spanish Inquisition? How about the teaching of the Roman Catholics that true piety can only be achieved thro ...[text shortened]... h of the religion in 3000 B.C. and the followers of Yaweh until the many denominations of today.
Originally posted by lucifershammerHere is just a start:
Please do. Specifically where someone teaches "God is doing this to punish you (sing.)".
Gen 9:2 "The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given.
Gen 32:11 "Deliver me, I pray, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau; for I fear him, that he will come and attack me and the mothers with the children.
Ex 1:17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them, but let the boys live.
Ex 9:20 The one among the servants of Pharaoh who feared the word of the LORD made his servants and his livestock flee into the houses;
Ex 9:30 "But as for you and your servants, I know that you do not yet fear the LORD God."
Ex 18:21 "Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens.
Ex 20:20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin."
Lev 25:17 'So you shall not wrong one another, but you shall fear your God; for I am the LORD your God.
And that is just a few of the instances of fear in the FIRST 3 BOOKS ALONE!
Punishment? How about these:
Gen 19:15 When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Up, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city."
Ex 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
Ex 32:34 "But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin."
Lev 5:17 "Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment.
Lev 26:18 'If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Again - from the first 3 books alone.....
I am not saying that Christianity is not right for you. If that is your thing, then good for you. I am glad that you have found something that makes you happy.
The History of Christianity from its birth is more rife with fear, punishment, vileness, hatred and death than any other religion on this planet. More killing has been done is God's name than for all other reasons combined. There have been more wars fought and more lives lost because of it that for any other reason in history.
Don't tell me a black cow is not black when it clearly is.
Originally posted by KnightWulfeI agree with this quite a bit, but have to put Islam in the same boat. Which of the two has done more of the things you say is debatable, but I do find the Qu'ran to be laced with even more violence and calls to take up violence in the name of Allah. I think it is hilarious how both religions propose their God is so filled with anger and retribution....seems like something a human might come up with....
I am not saying that Christianity is not right for you. If that is your thing, then good for you. I am glad that you have found something that makes you happy.
The History of Christianity from its birth is more rife with fear, punishment, vileness, hatred and death than any other religion on this planet. More killing has been done is God's name than ...[text shortened]... for any other reason in history.
Don't tell me a black cow is not black when it clearly is.
You hit the nail on the head....
I believe that to be the basis for the fallacy in every religion. Humans came up with it. Humans put it to parchment, paper, vellum, or leaf (whatever the medium). Humans passed it on. Humans translated it.
Every single human being sees things differently. Just because that hebrew text was translated by someone who understands hebrew, does not mean that translation will be the same as if someone else did it. Just because a human being meant it one way does not mean another human will hear it the same way and take it the same way.
Don't MOST women who suffer miscarriages somehow blame themselves?
Your friend might be putting a religious slant on it ("God is punishing me" ) but many atheist women would feel the same sense of guilt ("I did something wrong, that's why the baby died" ).
In both cases, the feeling of guilt is misplaced.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a1.htm
1962 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments. The precepts of the Decalogue lay the foundations for the vocation of man fashioned in the image of God; they prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbor and prescribe what is essential to it. The Decalogue is a light offered to the conscience of every man to make God's call and ways known to him and to protect him against evil:
God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.13
1963 According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good,14 yet still imperfect. Like a tutor15 it shows what must be done, but does not of itself give the strength, the grace of the Spirit, to fulfill it. Because of sin, which it cannot remove, it remains a law of bondage. According to St. Paul, its special function is to denounce and disclose sin, which constitutes a "law of concupiscence" in the human heart.16 However, the Law remains the first stage on the way to the kingdom. It prepares and disposes the chosen people and each Christian for conversion and faith in the Savior God. It provides a teaching which endures for ever, like the Word of God.
1972 The New Law is called a law of love because it makes us act out of the love infused by the Holy Spirit, rather than from fear; a law of grace, because it confers the strength of grace to act, .....
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a1.htm
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a1.htm
IN BRIEF
1975 According to Scripture the Law is a fatherly instruction by God which prescribes for man the ways that lead to the promised beatitude, and proscribes the ways of evil.
1976 "Law is an ordinance of reason for the common good, promulgated by the one who is in charge of the community" (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 90, 4).
1977 Christ is the end of the law (cf. Rom 10:4); only he teaches and bestows the justice of God.
1978 The natural law is a participation in God's wisdom and goodness by man formed in the image of his Creator. It expresses the dignity of the human person and forms the basis of his fundamental rights and duties.
1979 The natural law is immutable, permanent throughout history. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. It is a necessary foundation for the erection of moral rules and civil law.
1980 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments.
1981 The Law of Moses contains many truths naturally accessible to reason. God has revealed them because men did not read them in their hearts.
1982 The Old Law is a preparation for the Gospel.
1983 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit received by faith in Christ, operating through charity. It finds expression above all in the Lord's Sermon on the Mount and uses the sacraments to communicate grace to us.
1984 The Law of the Gospel fulfills and surpasses the Old Law and brings it to perfection: its promises, through the Beatitudes of the Kingdom of heaven; its commandments, by reforming the heart, the root of human acts.
1985 The New Law is a law of love, a law of grace, a law of freedom.
1986 Besides its precepts the New Law includes the evangelical counsels. "The Church's holiness is fostered in a special way by the manifold counsels which the Lord proposes to his disciples in the Gospel" (LG 42 § 2).
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a1.htm
Originally posted by KnightWulfeIt isn't a coïncidence you only give quotations taken from the Old Testament.
Here is just a start:
Gen 9:2 "The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given.
Gen 32:11 "Deliver me, I pray, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau; for I fear him, that he wi ...[text shortened]... I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Again - from the first 3 books alone.....
If you really want to get to know what Christian teachings are about you need to see the developments, the preparations which take place in the OT, and the developments taking place in the following NT.
EDIT: If Holy Scripture mentions the "Fear of the Lord" they mean the Holy Respect we ought to have for the Lord. It has litle to do with "fear" as we use it in everyday language.
It can be compared with the respect we owe a loving and righteous father.
Ivanhoe,
I have read both new and old cover to cover. It IS, in fact, coinicidence. I even state in my post that I was just getting started. Not only was it the Old testament, it was only the first three books.
I am not even going to bother going into the contracdictions of the 10 Commandments. I am not trying to start a flame war. Someone made a statement, I proved them wrong. You are trying to gode me into something else. I am not here to do that. Go troll elsewhere.
Originally posted by ivanhoeI truly don't want to disrespect you or your faith. My sister is a devout Catholic, and I believe good religious people(as opposed to pedophillic priests for ex) deserve respect, because I believe your person and intentions are good. I do want to debate the loving and righteous father analogy. I would not fear my loving and righteous father, because he loves me. I think bringing in the "Fear" deal is the illogical part.
It isn't a coïncidence you only give quotations taken from the Old Testament.
If you really want to get to know what Christian teachings are about you need to see the developments, the preparations which take place in the OT, and the developments taking place in the following NT.
EDIT: If Holy Scripture mentions the "Fear of the Lord" they mean t ...[text shortened]... everyday language.
It can be compared with the respect we owe a loving and righteous father.
Originally posted by KnightWulfegood work!
Here is just a start:
Gen 9:2 "The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given.
Gen 32:11 "Deliver me, I pray, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau; for I fear him, that he wi ...[text shortened]... I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Again - from the first 3 books alone.....
I can never be bothered to waste my time reading the book of lies.
But I give you a rec for your effort.
🙂
Originally posted by howardgeeBeing religious does entail one must be racked with guilt. This may be true for your friend due to her particular beliefs, but an agnostic could feel just as guilty for non-religious reasons. She could blame herself because she smoked, or did not get enough exercise, or too much exercise, or she did not eat right, or she....
A friend of mine recently lost her baby (miscarried).
Being religious, she is now racked by guilt, convinced that she has been punished by God for something she has done wrong.
I have tried in vain to convince her that miscarriages before 3 months are simply natural and random events without blame or causes.
A person suffering such emotional los ...[text shortened]... is. Why must religion punish them further with the notion of guilt and judgement from on high?
