06 Aug 06
2 edits
Originally posted by whodeyI’m writing this as an outsider who once was a Christian theist, but—
As I have stated in previous posts, it is fruitless to ask the question as to whether or not someone is going to heaven or to hell. This is because we are not the ones making the decision. All we know is what God tells us. In terms of children, I would assume there would be an age of accountability. After all, God is just and would only hold those account ...[text shortened]... benevolent and is not a repector of persons. He will sort things out according to what is just.
You know, I just did a search, and I can not find one place in the Bible, OT or NT, that says God is loving.* In 1st John, it says that God is love. That has always seemed to me to be a statement of God’s essence, as opposed to God’s attributes—which has always meant to me that God’s other attributes/characteristics (e.g., justness) cannot be set in any way against God’s essence (at least the NT God).
Where do some Christians (especially sola scriptura Christians) get this notion that God is merely loving, in the same way (and no more) that God is just, or merciful or whatever? I'm simply asking...
* Titus 3:4 refers to God’s loving kindness; the Hebrew Scriptures refer to God’s “steadfast love” (chesed).
EDIT: A couple of relevant quotes from the Greek Orthodox tradition:
“But God is just, the moralists answer, and he must grant justice and punish transgression. But from what do they derive this ‘must’ to which they subordinate even God? Does there exist, then, some necessity which limits the love of God, limits his freedom? If there is, then God is not God or at least he is not the God that the Church knows.”
Christos Yanneras, Elements of Faith: An Introduction to Orthodox Theology
As is a grain of sand weighed against a large amount of gold, so, in God, is the demand for equitable judgment weighed against his compassion. As a handful of sand in the boundless ocean, so are the sins of the flesh in comparison to God’s providence and mercy. As a copious spring could not be stopped up with a handful of dust, so the Creator’s compassion cannot be conquered by the wickedness of creatures.
Do not say that God is just….he is before all things kind and good. He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
St. Isaac the Syrian (quoted in Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism)
06 Aug 06
Originally posted by vistesdThis is clearly the only sort of God worth having faith in. Why are cruel and mean Gods so often objects of extreme devotion?
I’m writing this as an outsider who once was a Christian theist, but—
You know, I just did a search, and I can not find one place in the Bible, OT or NT, that says God is lov[b]ing.* In 1st John, it says that God is love. That has always seemed to me to be a statement of God’s essence, as opposed to God’s attributes—which has always meant to ...[text shortened]... .
St. Isaac the Syrian (quoted in Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism)[/b]
06 Aug 06
Originally posted by whodeyThis idea was invented by Dante in "The Inferno". He wrote his political comedy (so dreary but at the time it must have been hilarious satire) to poke fun at his opponents and rivals of the Florentine city state. Much later the Vatican declared it an official document - as if it were an authentic description of hell - a bit odd since Dante's Hell also contained the characters from Greek mythology.
5. There have been those who have inherited eternal life before the time of Christ.
Those that have been recorded as dying before the time of Christ and inheriting eternal life are those such as Abraham and Moses etc.
06 Aug 06
Originally posted by ceykaousGood question since the devil is going to be thrown into hell for his
Where do you get the idea the the devil will torture people in hell?
own punishment. Of course it would be good to identify what word
are we really talking about since there are several words translated
into the word hell too.
Kelly
06 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by vistesdHow about Hosea 14:4? "I will heal their transgressions, I will love them freely; for my anger is turned away from you." This God of the Old Testament looks very similar to that of the God of the New Testament, no? He loves despite the sin which he hates and shows mercy.
I’m writing this as an outsider who once was a Christian theist, but—
You know, I just did a search, and I can not find one place in the Bible, OT or NT, that says God is lov[b]ing.*
Also consider the fact that in the Old Testament the greatest commandment is to love your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Why would this be the greatest commandment if the God giving that commandment was not a God of love? This is seen in Deuteronomy 6:5 as well as Leviticus 19:18. The genius behind this commandment is that if you keep the commandment of love you will automatically keep the rest of the commandments without trying as seen in John 15:9. "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments and abide in his love." Therefore, if all of God's commandments are based upon love, how could God be a God that is not of love? In the Old Testament this can be seen in 2 Samuel 12:9. This is when the prophet Nathan confronts David for having an adulterous affair and then killing the husband of the woman he was having an affair with. "Why has thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight?" It appears that God views the rejection of his laws as a rejection of himself. The spiriit of those laws is grounded in love. How could David steal another man's wife and then have him killed in the spirit of love?
06 Aug 06
Originally posted by MixoNo. This idea comes directly from scripture. It is made obvious that men of God who died before the time of Christ are indeed granted eternal life. The rest, therefore, is purely conjecture as to how and why. It is merely my assumption that Christs sacrifice was key in this redemption based on the fact that Christ says that no man go to the father but through me. It is also obvious that faith equates righteousness. This can be seen throughout scripture. What is also alluded to is that when Christ was dead for 3 days before he rose, that he was liberating those men of faith that died before him. In Revelation it says that Christ holds the keys to death, hell, and the grave. It is therefore my assumption that this victory was achieved after he died on the cross. Death, hell, and the grave had no rights to him. After all, he was without sin. Therefore he was wrongly taken and a debt was then owed to him.
This idea was invented by Dante in "The Inferno". He wrote his political comedy (so dreary but at the time it must have been hilarious satire) to poke fun at his opponents and rivals of the Florentine city state. Much later the Vatican declared it an official document - as if it were an authentic description of hell - a bit odd since Dante's Hell also contained the characters from Greek mythology.
06 Aug 06
2 edits
Originally posted by vistesdThe question as to whether one can be loving, on the one hand, and punitive, on the other hand, has plagued many a theologan. I am no theologan, but I have my own ideas. If you look at sin from the perspective of God, it is a destructive force. Therefore, if he is a loving God, it would behoove him to do away with this destructive force so that suffering is marginalized, no? The problem with this, however, is that ever since the fall of man, man has a sin nature. Therefore, how does one due away with sin and still preserve the sinner whom God says he loves? It seems to me that Christ fits this equation as to how this dilemma can be rectified.
Where do some Christians (especially sola scriptura Christians) get this notion that God is merely loving, in the same way (and no more) that God is just, or merciful or whatever? I'm simply asking...
* Titus 3:4 refers to God’s loving kindness; the Hebrew Scriptures refer to God’s “steadfast love” (chesed).
EDIT: A couple of relevant qu ...[text shortened]... .
St. Isaac the Syrian (quoted in Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism)[/b]
Judgement is merely the final resting place for sin. All sin will be dealt with in similar fashion. This destructive force will one day be extinguished completely.