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01 Dec 15
Originally posted by yoctobyte
[quote]The difference [a difference] is that atheism is not a belief system, and Christianity is.
Christianity comes as a huge package [in many different flavours to suite nearly all tastes]
of beliefs and ideas and history and cultural baggage etc.
Atheism is simply the position of lacking a belief in a god or gods. There is not there t ...[text shortened]... gent, I am sure you would not want me to judge you based on the actions of another... would you?
You can say atheism (and you may believe it yourself is not a religion), but it certainly is adhered to as if it were by many, I know of some myself. But aren't we arguing semantics here if we allow ourselves to?
I didn't say that atheism is not a religion [it isn't a religion, but that's not what I said].
What I said is it's not a belief system. Which is simply a true fact.
Atheism is most broadly the position of LACKING a belief about the existence of god or gods.
That is it. There is nothing else. There are no beliefs here, there certainly is no belief system or world view.
This isn't just semantics.
There is nothing that I am aware of in the bible that speaks to 'abortion', it's life and we should call it that so there is no confusion.
The confusion is all on your end, I am not at all confused on this subject.
I am not arguing anything about abortion.
Your previous sentence says otherwise.
However what I was doing was giving an example, whether you were talking about it or not is irrelevant.
The truth is, if the revelations of late summer and early fall of this year with regards to abortion and Planned Parenthood don't turn your stomach, I don't know what will.
There were no revelations about Planned Parenthood.
I do believe this, we are beyond the 'pro-choice or rights argument' with regards to abortion, and on to celebrating it... truthfully we are... it's sickening.
Then what you believe is wrong.
As a side note, do you believe abortion is bad?
Nope.
I think you must have hit on every hot topic of the day and linked it with Christianity whether intentionally or not.
Then you are not thinking very clearly, because that's not at all what I just did.
A belief in no God is in of itself a belief, it is!
Yes. But I didn't say a belief in no god, I said a LACK of belief in god or gods.
Learn the difference.
We all have a system by which we function, a moral compass if you will. The subject of morals is hot because it is associated with a belief system, faith or religion if you will... but we all operate from one regardless of what we call it. Sometimes, as in the case of the man of the hour 'Robert Louis Dear' something goes wrong and people go haywire. Maybe this is due to financial pressures, family stress, drugs and alcohol, misinterpreted writings from wherever or mental illness... maybe big pharma? I understand that the majority of mass murders in the US are associated with anti-depressants/psychiatric drugs , should we now say that anybody taken these drugs is a possible threat? Because that is what the OP asserts with regards to Christians.
We do indeed all have belief systems and world views of one kind or another. I didn't claim otherwise.
My point, is that atheism isn't a belief system or world view.
So if we are pointing to world views or belief systems that cause harm, atheism is not part of the conversation
because it isn't a belief system or world view. It's typically a result of whatever belief system or world views that
the atheist in question believes in.
Christianity on the other hand IS a world view and belief system and as such does and is supposed to alter the
thoughts and behaviour of the person who subscribes to it and thus bears some responsibility for the actions of
it's adherents. Particularly in areas where it's teachings are relevant.
The point is, the lumping of all Christians together to paint some picture has to stop. Judge a man individually and by his fruits and not by that actions of someone else or their profession of faith. It is only the fair thing to do, and the right thing!
You seem rather intelligent, I am sure you would not want me to judge you based on the actions of another... would you?
There were some perfectly nice people who were good family members and were kind, good with kids/animals etc
who were members of the Nazi Party.
Does this mean that Nazi ideology wasn't a bad influence that caused an awful lot of harm?
No, of course not.
When I say [for example] that the Christian religion is bad/harmful/dangerous/evil/etc I am not calling all the PEOPLE
in that religion bad/harmful/dangerous/evil/etc. I am talking about the ideology, not the people.
One example I often bring up is that Christianity [like all religions] promotes belief by faith as a virtue and something
that you should do. Because Christianity [like all religions] has claims in it that are not supported by evidence and thus
cannot be believed rationally/scientifically. This is dangerous as it basically gives a person carte blanche to believe whatever
they want to believe, and some people want to believe dangerous things. It also makes you more vulnerable to being
conned. Con-artists rely on people not thinking critically and rationally to perpetrate their scams. Religions treat critical
thinking and skepticism as a threat and actively seek to suppress peoples ability to think skeptically and rationally.
Something that is already hard to do.
Now this leads to all kinds of different results. For example Suzianne doesn't buy the idea of a young Earth or that the
bible tells us how the world works and thus is [relatively] un-threatened by much of science and so happily accepts
much of science. RJHinds on the other hand does think that the bible tells us how the world works and does buy the
idea of a young Earth and is thus much more threatened by science and thus rejects almost all of it.
Both have problems with reality, but to different degrees and in different circumstances because their personal take is
different.
However, both have the same underlying problem of belief based on faith promoted by [roughly] the same religion/belief
system... Christianity.
I can thus comfortably say that their belief system [variations on a theme of Christianity] is doing them harm, and causing
them to be wrong. It is their religion that is at least in part to blame.
Now their beliefs and world view shapes their actions, and any harm they do in the world that stems from these wrong
beliefs promoted and allowed by Christianity is thus at least partly that religions fault.
02 Dec 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Raj, I have heard you speak of this many times and as a Christian I can tell you I have never heard this doctrine that you claim is so prevalent in the church today. I don't know that I have seen anyone espousing such doctrine either on this forum. For the sake of the exercise, can you tell/show me where this doctrine is run amuck? Thx.
You missed the point. I'm not a supporter of Joes rants but the point made is a valid one. That is that to tell a man that there are no consequences or very little consequences for grevious sins is a very wrong thing to do. Christian churches do that all the time and it encourages evil rather than discourage it.
Originally posted by googlefudge
The difference [a difference] is that atheism is not a belief system, and Christianity is.
Christianity comes as a huge package [in many different flavours to suite nearly all tastes]
of beliefs and ideas and history and cultural baggage etc.
Atheism is simply the position of lacking a belief in a god or gods. There is not there there ...[text shortened]... s simply a label for all those for
whatever reason do not have a belief in some kind of god/s.
The difference [a difference] is that atheism is not a belief system...Umm., I'm not sure that that is true for strong atheists. Implicits and agnostics don't believe a thing but strong atheists do and I think there's a belief system there. I agree there is not an atheist gospel as such (maybe some of Russel's writings) but that's not really defining for a belief system. Once one accepts a view of the world where God does not exist then rationalism is the only coherent discourse. This is a belief system.
Originally posted by yoctobyteInteresting that you could say that while at this very same time Checkbaiter is making the claim that those that are 'saved', whatever he means by that, will be in the Kingdom of God no matter what his sins are. Please read his posts in this thread.
Raj, I have heard you speak of this many times and as a Christian I can tell you I have never heard this doctrine that you claim is so prevalent in the church today. I don't know that I have seen anyone espousing such doctrine either on this forum. For the sake of the exercise, can you tell/show me where this doctrine is run amuck? Thx.
02 Dec 15
Originally posted by googlefudgeNot sure why that would funny or true. With respect to Islamic mass-murderers thoseThe guy is mad, he could claim to belong to any group it would not be a
reflection upon the group.
Funnily that is what is always said about white Christian mass-murderers, and never
what is said about Islamic mass-murderers.
There are many many many people with mental disorders. Many of which could in the
right circumstances l ...[text shortened]... 'the right circumstances'
are [at least in part] responsible for the harm done by such people.
seem to be more of cult of death than anything else. There have been cults that called
themselves Christian that killed many, the Jones farm I think it was that comes to mind;
however, those believers killed themselves verses others.
If you had a single mass murderer that was Islamic I'd say the same thing about him or
her. I'd be just as pointed about someone who called themselves Atheist too.
02 Dec 15
Originally posted by 667joeExcept Jesus is Lord of all, therefore all sins against his are sins against Him too.
If you sin against another person, only that person can forgive you, not Jesus. It is very immoral to expect Jesus to forgive you and bypass the person against whom you have sinned! (This is the concept of vicarious redemption.)
Originally posted by DeepThoughtOn what basis do you make that claim? Do you have any statistics to back it up?
I think his anti-social personality would have found a way of manifesting itself had he been an atheist.
I must say that mass murderers are predominantly theist, but that may simply be a case of theism appealing to mass murderers. However, in the modern day, I think we can safely say that Islamic suicide bombers would be far less likely to commit such acts if they did not have the comfort of religion telling them that they would not only receive no punishment but would in fact be rewarded for their actions.
You may also want to read through this:
http://religiondispatches.org/masculinity-and-mass-violence/
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Originally posted by DeepThoughtThen you think wrongly.The difference [a difference] is that atheism is not a belief system...Umm., I'm not sure that that is true for strong atheists. Implicits and agnostics don't believe a thing but strong atheists do and I think there's a belief system there. I agree there is not an atheist gospel as such (maybe some of Russel's writings) but that's not re ...[text shortened]... re God does not exist then rationalism is the only coherent discourse. This is a belief system.
A strong atheist does have one belief that is an 'atheist' belief.
They believe that gods do not exist, rather than just lack a belief that gods exist.
One belief does not however make a belief system.
[quote]Once one accepts a view of the world where God does not exist then rationalism is the only coherent discourse. This is a belief system.[quote]
Wrong.
There are Hindu sects [as an example] who believe that gods do not exist [strong atheists] and yet
they are not rationalists. Strike one.
Strike two... I am a rationalist, skeptic, humanist, transhumanist, materialist, and believer in the scientific method.
Those [roughly speaking] define my belief system/world view.
The fact that I am an atheist is a result of that world view.
I am an atheist BECAUSE I am a skeptic, BECAUSE I am a rationalist, etc etc.
Atheism is not a belief system, it is a result of belief systems.
Originally posted by googlefudge"One belief does not however make a belief system."
Then you think wrongly.
A strong atheist does have one belief that is an 'atheist' belief.
They believe that gods do not exist, rather than just lack a belief that gods exist.
One belief does not however make a belief system.
[quote]Once one accepts a view of the world where God does not exist then rationalism is the only coherent discourse. ...[text shortened]... am a rationalist, etc etc.
Atheism is not a belief system, it is a result of belief systems.
If it is your guiding belief as you view all other things it will without a doubt color the rest
of your views of all things as they are bounced off of it. You reject creation by God due to
your rejection of God, you'll have to come up with another reason for the all things to
come into being. You have to reject a single source of right and wrong if you reject that
God is the source of all right and wrong, so you'll have to come up with your own reasons
for such things or even deny them outright. What you cannot do is acknowledge all that
God gives to us comes to us by God, so everything around us will have to have other
reasons be and to do. The beliefs of all Atheist may not be the same, but what group on
the planet has exact views on everything, the Atheist are no different than the rest of the
world, they claim they are better or more real because.....
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02 Dec 15
Originally posted by KellyJay
"One belief does not however make a belief system."
If it is your guiding belief as you view all other things it will without a doubt color the rest
of your views of all things as they are bounced off of it. You reject creation by God due to
your rejection of God, you'll have to come up with another reason for the all things to
come into being. You ha ...[text shortened]... e no different than the rest of the
world, they claim they are better or more real because.....
If it is your guiding belief...
One belief does not make a belief system no matter how important that belief is.
However, atheism is not a guiding belief.
Partly because the majority of atheists are those that simply lack a belief in gods and thus
there atheism consists of precisely zero beliefs.
But mostly because atheism is [and I will say this again] the RESULT of that persons belief system.
Whatever that is.
Look, atheisms opposite, theism, isn't a belief system either.
Christianity, that is a belief system [or collection of belief systems] that is theistic, it includes the belief
in god.
Secular Humanism is a belief system, that is atheistic, it does not include a belief in gods.
Atheism is not a belief system.
Originally posted by googlefudgeReally, you don't think that a rejection of the source of all things doesn't cause you to buildIf it is your guiding belief...
One belief does not make a belief system no matter how important that belief is.
However, atheism is not a guiding belief.
Partly because the majority of atheists are those that simply lack a belief in gods and thus
there atheism consists of precisely zero beliefs.
But mostly because atheism is ...[text shortened]... tem, that is atheistic, it does not include a belief in gods.
Atheism is not a belief system.
a system of beliefs to fill in the blanks? I'd say it does, to deny God is real now puts you
in the place of filling in the blanks and because all of our beliefs need to agree with each
other to not be contradictory a system will appear. Our lives will not tolerate a vacuum it
will fill in the blanks with something.
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02 Dec 15
Originally posted by KellyJayWe have had this argument many times before. And as always you have it all backwards.
Really, you don't think that a rejection of the source of all things doesn't cause you to build
a system of beliefs to fill in the blanks? I'd say it does, to deny God is real now puts you
in the place of filling in the blanks and because all of our beliefs need to agree with each
other to not be contradictory a system will appear. Our lives will not tolerate a vacuum it
will fill in the blanks with something.
Please pay attention this time.
I will use myself as an example, but this is only one of many [potentially an infinite number of] ways
to come to the same result, do not think all/many/most atheists follow the same path, or that I am
describing anyone but myself here.
I am a rationalist and skeptic.
What that means [for the purposes of this discussion] is that I believe in learning about the nature of the
universe through science and rational enquiry. In following the evidence to see what it tells us about the
nature of reality.
It also means that I want to believe only that which is demonstrably true.
Now, IF it were the case that the evidence led to the conclusion that a god or gods did exist, and that they
made the universe we observe then I would believe that that god or those gods exist. I would be a theist, I
would have a belief in the existence of a god or gods. My world view would still be that of a rationalist and skeptic,
and my theism would be a result of that world view.
However, what I actually find is that there is no evidence that any gods exist, and evidence that they don't.
And I find no evidence that the universe was made by intelligent agents of any kind, and plenty that it was
formed naturally. Therefore I conclude that there are no gods, don't believe that gods exist, and am thus an atheist.
My world view is still that of a rationalist and skeptic, and my atheism is a result of that world view.
At no point have I EVER started by assuming that god/s do not exist and then tried to make sense of the
world in that light.
Instead, I ask "what is the world like, what does the evidence tell me" and then gone on from there.
That is how science works.
My world view is not atheism, it never has been and never will be. Because atheism is not a world view, or belief
system.
Atheism is the RESULT of having a belief system of some kind. And there are many many many different belief systems
that do not include god/s. Just as there are many many many different belief systems that do include god/s.
YOUR belief system is not theism. It's some variant of Christianity [it might include some other things, people can have
more than one belief system they ascribe to].