Originally posted by Nemesio
Jesus taught, 'Love your enemies.' You are charged with befriending and loving Jesus's
executioners. You are charged with living a Christian life towards Bennett with no
expectation of reciprocation. A True Christian is not entitled to civility, decency, morality,
or any other such thing; a True Christian is expected to maintain a Christ-like attitude in the
face of incivility, indecency, immorality, insult, persecution, and so forth.
Hear, hear.
Originally posted by pcaspian
The issue I have is that in our conversations you defend BBarr.
I don't recall defending bbarr in private any more than in public. But I will say this: as objectionable as many of his posts are, you don't know bbarr if you know him only from the forums. You might be surprised how nice a guy he is when he's not being called a NAZI. He's never insulted me, although I know my beliefs at times offend him. If he can respect me despite what he sees as my faults, can't I respect him despite what I see as his?
Imagine one of the Israelites befriending Goliath, or one of Jesus's disciples befriending Jesus's executioners.
Imagine Jesus praying for the forgiveness of His tormentors, and Stephen for the forgiveness of his. Am I any less an enemy of Christ than the men who beat Him and killed Him? Of course not, not by nature. I am a sinner by nature, an enemy of God. How does God treat His enemies? Romans 5:8
For that I will refer you back to my example regarding your family. You love your children and wife to bits I am sure ? Would you attitude and friendship towards BBarr remain should the object of his ridicule be your own family instead of Jesus ?
My attitude doesn't need to change. I'm offended whenever anyone mocks and ridicules Jesus. I simply refuse to let my attitude best my will. I have been on the very verge of punching someone in the face for blasphemy, but by the grace of God I contained myself. That's my calling as a Christian. It's your calling, and ivanhoe's. And God will supply the strength and patience we need. Unless, of course, we reject Him and decide He's got no business regulating our behavior in the forums.
As for forums, if we are going to post and frequent the forums, is it fair that the only Christian posters rebuking others end up being Ivan and Darfius or RBHilll ? What you are saying is true, BBarr is not a Christian, however Nemesio and Kirksey claim to be such. I've yet however to hear any support of Ivan in any such debates on RHP.
If it helps any: I think Nemesio and Kirk are often too rude as well. You may have noticed in my first post in this thread that I said all Christians (myself included!) fall short of our calling. But I can't think of any poster, Christian or otherwise, who has outdone ivanhoe in a rampage of hostility and malice.
I don't venture too often into the ethical threads, because my whole ethical system derives from my love for Christ. I will never be able to convince a non-Christian of my ethical beliefs. If they don't love Christ, we won't be able to talk turkey. So why should I bicker in those threads? If you want to know my stance on any ethical matter, I'll give it. I'll give it publically. But I won't waste time in name-calling threads continually badgering non-Christians. I have no fear of making a stand for my beliefs. But I won't do so in a manner deliberately contrary to the orders I have received from my Lord in His Word.
Originally posted by huntingbear
I don't recall defending bbarr in private any more than in public. But I will say this: as objectionable as many of his posts are, you don't know bbarr if you know him only from the forums. You might be surprised how nice a guy he is when he's not being called a NAZI. He's never insulted me, although I know my beliefs at times offend him. If he can respect me despite what he sees as my faults, can't I respect him despite what I see as his?
Sorry Huntingbear, I don't see this. Ignoring RC for the moment, for whom I have no respect anyway, do you really believe BBarr's Haiku's (even his current avatar) is not intended as insult ? Is this because its not directed at you but Ivan ? He was called a nazi only after his Haiku's . Then made a concerted effort of ridiculing Ivan af FW. Does this nice guy approach also including insulting Christ so he can get back at one or two posters at RHP irrespective of whoever else he may insult ? Why does his nice guy real life persona contradict the disdain he displays towards Christians at RHP ?
I've little doubt in public he may come across as pleasant, heck even be a nice guy. Whether you have contact with BBarr or accept him as a friend is not my concern. This is providing your friendship with him does not affect the relationship of those around you. Lets say your friend would wear a similar shirt to the one that guy you wanted to beat up in the video store. Is he still a nice guy ? Do you take this guy to meet your Christian friends ? What if he starts insulting them, their faith ? At what point do you actually explain to this friend of yours that his behaviour is unacceptable and you cannot continue to befriend him. See, you built up hated/intense dislike for a person you didn't even know, simply because of a message on his T-Shirt. Do you believe the dislike you felt was unwarrented, or were you justified by biting your tongue ? Now imagine having to see his guy wear a different "I hate Jesus"shirt every day he walks into the video store. How much do you think you would be able to take, especially when he walks in with a friend of yours from Church who then berates you for showing anger at him.
That's my calling as a Christian. It's your calling, and ivanhoe's. And God will supply the strength and patience we need. Unless, of course, we reject Him and decide He's got no business regulating our behavior in the forums.
Why do you believe that ? This is the age old question. You will protect your family from harm yes ? Are you willing to kill an intruder should he try to kill your wife and children, or do you accept that your wife and child are saved, but the intruder isn't ? Would God expect absolute passifism on our part, for of course we are essentially sentencing his intruder to Hell should we kill him.
But I can't think of any poster, Christian or otherwise, who has outdone ivanhoe in a rampage of hostility and malice.
I don't believe there is another Christian that is constantly berated and singled out as much as Ivan is. As such for me it is difficult to judge him for I am not in his shoes. Do you think you would be able to do any better than Ivan in similar circumstances ? If you were in the firing line with Ivan, RB and Darfius ? Or do you believe that what they are doing i.e. preaching to those that do not wish to hear, is where they are going wrong ?
So why should I bicker in those threads? If you want to know my stance on any ethical matter, I'll give it. I'll give it publically. But I won't waste time in name-calling threads continually badgering non-Christians. I have no fear of making a stand for my beliefs. But I won't do so in a manner deliberately contrary to the orders I have received from my Lord in His Word.
I don't believe you should have to do this either HuntingBear, and for that reason I don't care to debate here either. But you seem to be branding Ivan as a scapegoat, the real reason BBarr and others hate Christ. This is not the case. People are not Christians because Christians are really nice folk, nor are they athiests because Christians are hypocrites, they are not Christians because they don't believe Christ died for their sins. Yes, poor Christian behaviour has annoyed my many times, but that should not affect my relationship with God. Christians are 'slow' to anger, not emotionless drones. Jesus had the same emotions as you and I and displayed those. We should not mistake Christianity for passifism or display a false sense of calm when we certainly are not calm, for this is false pretense.
I believe Ivan and every Christian on RHP offended by content here should rethink discussing religious content here. Having said that I woudln't know what advice I'd give to someone with authority responsible to upholding moral standards. Again however there fortunitely are laws regarding instigating religious hatred, so that may be easier that here.
Anyway, I don't particularly want to drag you into debate here, especially since you're 3rd is on its way soon which I know will be difficult. What I suggest is thus working together with Ivan to persuade him of your point of view, back this up with scripture if needs be for it would be enriching. There is a purpose for everything, athiest and Christian.
cheers
pc
Originally posted by pcaspianMe, because my Christian name ends in Ian, so therefore i rule. pffffft.
Originally posted by huntingbear
[b]
I don't recall defending bbarr in private any more than in public. But I will say this: as objectionable as many of his posts are, you don't know bbarr if you know him only from the forums. You might be surprised how nice a guy he is when he's not being called a NAZI. He's never insulted me, although I know ...[text shortened]... uld be enriching. There is a purpose for everything, athiest and Christian.
cheers
pc
Ps. Come on lads.
Originally posted by pcaspianI won't respond to the details of this post, except to say that it is just another one of your
Originally posted by huntingbear
I don't recall defending bbarr in private any more than in public. But I will say this: as objectionable as many of his posts are, you don't know bbarr if you know him only from the forums. You mi ...[text shortened]... urpose for everything, athiest and Christian.
cheers
pc
rationalizations to justify hate in the name of Christ. You know full well what 'love your
enemies' means, and what 'praying for your persecutors' entails.
If Bennett's every post was about how much he hated Jesus and Christians, your obligation
to pray for him would be ever the more necessary.
I heard today that John Paul II, visited his would-be assassin less than two years after
the attempt on his life. He said, 'I spoke to him as I would a brother,' with no malice,
anger, contempt, or reservation, and with complete forgiveness. Not defending the Pope's
every action in his life, but this is a single example of living out the message of Christ.
You might want to reflect on this model: a person acting in love towards his would-be
killer versus being vile, obnoxious, and hateful to those who make obscene haikus. Which
one looks more like Jesus to you?
'But, but, but, he started it. He said mean things and got me mad.' <---- This argument
has no merit in the context of Christianity. When slapped, you are to offer the other cheek,
not slap back. Your argument is all about justifying your sin before God, not repentance in
His sight.
Being a Christian is hard, and you repeatedly demonstrate that you are not up to the task.
Nemesio
Originally posted by pcaspianObviously you are being disingenous as usual. As stated in my prior post, you supported a short, temporary forum ban for Ivanhoe, while you have lobbied for total and permanent bans for members who don't agree with you (like Bbarr, RC and myself). When you didn't get your way and the people who "hate Christ" (how ridiculous!) weren't permanently banned, you held your breath, turned blue and said you were leaving the site. Those are the facts and you know it.
Originally posted by no1marauder
[b] It is an amazing coincidence that all the people you wanted banned didn't agree with your political and philosophical positions isn't it, pcaspian?
Hardly, someone who shared my faith would not make vulgar references to Christ. However, as you were being sarcastic, lets try just a little rebuttal. ...[text shortened]... perhaps open a thread in the debates forum or we can continue this in private.
cheers
pc[/b]
I've told you before I'm not interested in PM's from you; I use PM's to communicate with people I like on RHP, not people who want me banned. The discussion here was in response to your absurd statement that you "respect other's beliefs"; obviously your idea of "respect" is quite different from the rest of the world's as it includes trying to silence the expression of beliefs you don't like. I do my discussions in public; either respond here or at FW or don't respond at all - any PM from you will be deleted without being read as I told you before.
Originally posted by Nemesio
Being a Christian is hard, and you repeatedly demonstrate that you are not up to the task.
Nemesio
Look, no offense but I don't actually read your posts anymore. You may notice I've ignored your last 10 or so posts addressed to me. I'm slightly curious why you and no1 post virtually simultaneously all the time, but thats nothing more than curiosity.
Surely there is a new release of monkey island soon, because I do believe you need to take a break from posting in my threads 😉
pc
Originally posted by no1marauder
I've told you before I'm not interested in PM's from you; I use PM's to communicate with people I like on RHP, not people who want me banned.
What happened to that invite at FW so you could 'really let me know what you think of me' without fear of getting banned ? Oh wait, I believe I was too afraid to witness the tongue lashing you had lined up for me ... or something 😉
Dude, don't take the moral highground, you'll soon find it too boring up there 🙂
Originally posted by pcaspian
do you really believe BBarr's Haiku's (even his current avatar) is not intended as insult ?
No. I believe it was intended to offend ivanhoe.
He was called a nazi only after his Haiku's .
No. ivanhoe has compared bbarr to the NAZI's on more than one occasion prior to the infamous haikus. Besides, the NAZI comment was an illustration meant to stand for frequent insults of various kinds. But this is really beside the point. I have no more interest in taking bbarr's side over ivanhoe's than I do in taking ivanhoe's over bbarr's. To reduce this issue to side-taking is absurd. I am feeling less and less inclined to repeat myself on this point: I am not defending bbarr and I am not taking his side against ivanhoe. I am beginning to resent having to repeat that Bennett has offended me more than once. I resent it because in our friendship, Bennett and I have a habit of letting past offenses arising from our differing worldviews pass as water under the bridge.
This is all beside the point because bbarr does not have a Master who has given him specific orders to be gentle and respectful when sharing his faith (1 Peter 3:15) and to love his enemies (Matthew 5:44). You, ivanhoe, and I have such a Master, and our behavior reflects on Him.
Why does his nice guy real life persona contradict the disdain he displays towards Christians at RHP ?
First, it should be clear that his disdain does not extend to all Christians. Would you be surprised to know that bbarr has expressed admiration for Christianity to me? And I'm a fundamentalist!
Am I defending his too-frequent blasphemy? I certainly hope I will not be asked to answer that question again.
Let me ask you, are you a nice guy despite some of the disdain you've shown for non-Christians? Am I a nice guy despite the regrettable way I treated howardgee on more than one occasion?
How good does a person have to be before God loves him? How good does a person have to be before we are to love him?
Do you believe the dislike you felt was unwarrented, or were you justified by biting your tongue ?
I'm not sure what you're asking. Carrying out the violence I felt like committing would not have been justified. It would be in direct violation of the orders I've received from my Captain. If that guy wore his t-shirt, which read 'Christ is the crucified whore,' into a shop, my house, or to my church, I would not in any case be justified in gratifying my emotions by disobeying the Lord Jesus and attacking that blasphemer. Thank God that He gave me the strength not to abuse my calling in that very way.
Why do you believe that ? This is the age old question. You will protect your family from harm yes ? Are you willing to kill an intruder should he try to kill your wife and children, or do you accept that your wife and child are saved, but the intruder isn't ? Would God expect absolute passifism on our part, for of course we are essentially sentencing his intruder to Hell should we kill him.
The day bbarr breaks into my home and threatens my family is the day my duty, as a Christian father, to protect them will over-ride my pacifism. But even if I have to kill someone because he tries to hurt one of my babies, I will not be justified to hate. I have never said that pacifism per se is a Christian's duty, but I am coming to expect to be misrepresented. I have only said that a Christian is required to obey God's Word, which clearly prohibits obscene language and the hatred of one's enemies.
I don't believe there is another Christian that is constantly berated and singled out as much as Ivan is.
He made his bed. He can lie in it.
As such for me it is difficult to judge him for I am not in his shoes.
I have no interest in judging him. My concern was only to point out that his behavior directly contradicts his calling. And need I remind you that I criticised not only ivanhoe, but all Christians, including myself?
Do you think you would be able to do any better than Ivan in similar circumstances ?
Immaterial. I have never once claimed to be better than ivanhoe or anyone else.
Or do you believe that what they are doing i.e. preaching to those that do not wish to hear, is where they are going wrong ?
I believe any Christian goes wrong when he fails to obey Christ. That includes me.
But you seem to be branding Ivan as a scapegoat, the real reason BBarr and others hate Christ.
You are making unwarranted conclusions from what I have said. I said that Jesus' name is blasphemed among non-Christians because of the behavior of Christians. I never said that all blasphemy is caused by the misbehavior of Christians, still less that it is all caused by the misbehavior of ivanhoe. Nothing in any of my posts justifies such an extrapolation.
Yes, poor Christian behaviour has annoyed my many times, but that should not affect my relationship with God.
It has not affected my relationship with God, either, except in the very positive way that it gives me a lot to pray about. Since prayer is good for me, that's a silver lining to the otherwise dark and stormy cloud of Christian misbehavior.
We should not mistake Christianity for passifism or display a false sense of calm when we certainly are not calm, for this is false pretense.
Mistaking Christianity for pacifism is another unwarranted extrapolation. It puzzles me as much now as it did the first time you suggested I make that mistake.
Neither have I called for any false pretense, any more than James did when he wrote, "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be." (James 3:9-10 NIV)
I believe Ivan and every Christian on RHP offended by content here should rethink discussing religious content here.
In that case, where shall we discuss religion? Only at church or within the four walls of our homes? If ivanhoe decides not to discuss religion where he might be offended, then he'd be making a mistake. I certainly do not think ivanhoe should stop posting, stop making moral stands, or stop discussing religion for fear of being offended. I only think he (and we) should conduct ourselves in obedience to the Lord when we do those things.
What I suggest is thus working together with Ivan to persuade him of your point of view, back this up with scripture if needs be for it would be enriching.
He seems to have denied me this option, having instructed me to leave God out of this.
Originally posted by pcaspianGood advice and right judgment should be heard, irrespective of its source. Your
Look, no offense but I don't actually read your posts anymore. You may notice I've ignored your last 10 or so posts addressed to me. I'm slightly curious why you and no1 post virtually simultaneously all the time, but thats nothing more than curiosity.
ignoring of me and other people is only a further demonstration of your inability
to adhere to your own faith's teachings.
#1 and I are linked with an astral cord which cannot be severed by corporeal means.
It comes from the Baptism in Blood I had in the Satanic rituals my family introduced
to me as an infant; #1 was my anti-godfather and gave me the evil eye at the moment
of my desecration. We've been linked ever since.
Your 'observation' only demonstrates that you are a paranoid-delusional conspiracy advocate.
Nemesio
Originally posted by huntingbear
No. I believe it was intended to offend ivanhoe.
You ask me what I believes makes someone a nice guy. Well, I'd say not aspiring to revenge or insult at the cost of other innocents would be a start. Throwing a bomb on 10 people knowing it will certainly kill one person, yet not caring about the other 9 (in my books) makes someone a 'not nice' guy.
This is all beside the point because bbarr does not have a Master who has given him specific orders to be gentle and respectful when sharing his faith (1 Peter 3:15) and to love his enemies (Matthew 5:44). You, ivanhoe, and I have such a Master, and our behavior reflects on Him.
This is the interesting theological debate. Mat 5.44 fits in with my example regarding protecting your loved ones. Matthew mentions "pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;". Why does this change when they persecute your family ? Did the Christian men who's families (wives and children) suffer persecution from Nero forum army to fight Nero, or was it their purpose and mission to die peacefully ?
First, it should be clear that his disdain does not extend to all Christians. Would you be surprised to know that bbarr has expressed admiration for Christianity to me? And I'm a fundamentalist!
Yes it would, I believe his current avatar speaks for itself. But lets leave him out of this discussion for the moment as it seems we should focus only on Christians at this point.
How good does a person have to be before God loves him? How good does a person have to be before we are to love him?
Why God chooses some and not others I do not know. I've yet however to see God choose those that curse His name.
into a shop, my house, or to my church, I would not in any case be justified in gratifying my emotions by disobeying the Lord Jesus and attacking that blasphemer. Thank God that He gave me the strength not to abuse my calling in that very way.
This is something I've always been curious about. We've had our discussions about 'time for war and a time for peace' and I wonder. If this man walks into church blaspheming God, disrupting the church service, do you believe God still expects us to restrain ourselves ? Do you believe Jesus was justified in chasing out the merchants in church precisely because he was Jesus, or would this right be extended to all Christians ?
He made his bed. He can lie in it.
Well, what I believe you are doing is to judge Ivan. Granted as he is a Christian you have every right to judge him just as you have a right to judge me. I am merely saying that if you love Ivan as a brother in Christ, (and taking into account the just yesterday he apologised to everyone at RHP whom he has offended), surely you can show empathy with him ? Afterall as you have already claimed, you yourself have also acted in a fashion you were ashamed of (as have we all). In your previous post I understand you already stated this.
Mistaking Christianity for pacifism is another unwarranted extrapolation. It puzzles me as much now as it did the first time you suggested I make that mistake.
I believe the idea of mistaking Christianity for passifism was introduced to me in the 'Screwtape' letters. C.S.Lewis was writing about how some maintained that Britain should not have gone to war against Germany. Whilst I clearly see you as a Christian, I see your stance on passifism rather strong (actually it use to be a stance I mastered, for I supported absolute passifism at a point in time). What you haven't yet explained is who you would consider this applies to “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”. For me, that would certainly include people who blaspheme against God. Thus I am asking whether you believe we should preach to people that not only reject God, but curse His name ? Simply put, Jesus must have been speaking about a certain group of people, who would you consider this to be ?
In that case, where shall we discuss religion? Only at church or within the four walls of our homes? If ivanhoe decides not to discuss religion where he might be offended, then he'd be making a mistake. I certainly do not think ivanhoe should stop posting, stop making moral stands, or stop discussing religion for fear of being offended. I only think he (and we) should conduct ourselves in obedience to the Lord when we do those things.
Ok, but you need to incorporate this view into the point I made above. Unless you interpret the verse differently, it certainly does seem to suggest that we should keep what is Holy, Holy and not have Jesus's name dragged through mud. I'm not claiming there are any easy answers at all, nor do I expect you to have the perfect solution.
He seems to have denied me this option, having instructed me to leave God out of this.
He said this yesterday. He's clearly been annoying you for a long time however. I've little doubt Ivan would respond to you in kind should you offer the sincere message of brotherhood in Christ.
pc.
Originally posted by huntingbear, answering Pcaspian.
Huntingbear: He (IvanH) seems to have denied me this option, having instructed me to leave God out of this.
What I wanted to communicate is that people, including you, should stop using God's teachings, quoting His Word, to manipulate and intimidate their opponents and get them in the corner they want them to be. I would like them to stop (mis)using God and God's Word in their personal fights.
That's why I say to you "Leave God out of this".
Huntingbear: "No. ivanhoe has compared bbarr to the NAZI's on more than one occasion prior to the infamous haikus."
I compared the Neo-Kantian personhood theories, which he advocates and which allow medical experimentation on and killing unborn children up to six months and certain other human beings, which he calls non-persons, to similar medical experimentation and killing ideas the Nazi's have advocated and practised in the past. I compared these ideas and noticed the simularities.