07 Oct 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieI don't relish getting older with arthritic knees and ankles. However, the increased freedom of my time is wonderful. I can play chess again and witness for the Lord, Christ Jesus.
do you relish getting older? do you look forward to death so you can meet the love of your life?
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!
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07 Oct 12
Originally posted by RJHindsdeath was really the focus of my question. i wondered if you looked forward to it with excitement?
I don't relish getting older with arthritic knees and ankles. However, the increased freedom of my time is wonderful. I can play chess again and witness for the Lord, Christ Jesus.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!
07 Oct 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieWell, not really. But I have already paid for burial plots for my wife and myself. But I have not actually looked forward to using them. I still enjoy doing things in this life and can wait for that blessed hope to come. 😏
death was really the focus of my question. i wondered if you looked forward to it with excitement?
HaleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!
08 Oct 12
Originally posted by KellyJayIn Job God is speaking from chapter 38 on. What He says is not direct and the text is more poetry than prose - not a bad feature unless one wants a simple, direct quote. He lists His achievements (an interesting additional account of Creation perhaps - one for another debate) and basically argues that humans have no idea what they are talking about.
What in the book of Job are you refering to?
Kelly
“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
Eventually, if we wish Him to take our arguments seriously, first we should show that we have the same level of power as He has.
Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you
08 Oct 12
Originally posted by finneganI honestly believe compared to God we don't, we understand the things of man
In Job God is speaking from chapter 38 on. What He says is not direct and the text is more poetry than prose - not a bad feature unless one wants a simple, direct quote. He lists His achievements (an interesting additional account of Creation perhaps - one for another debate) and basically argues that humans have no idea what they are talking about.
“Wh ...[text shortened]... faces in the grave.
Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you
because of the spirit of man within us, we understand the things of God due to the
Spirit of God within us. Without God's input we have nothing, we most certainly
do not have any power before God to MAKE or force God into anything, nor do we
have cause or justification to make God do anything. So what is it your trying to
tell me I have wrong due to Job?
Kelly
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08 Oct 12
Originally posted by RJHindsyour not really selling heaven well. i thought heaven was supposed to be this amazing place where you can do all the things you can do on earth and more, while basking in the overwhelming love of god? yet you dont seem excited at the prospect.
Well, not really. But I have already paid for burial plots for my wife and myself. But I have not actually looked forward to using them. I still enjoy doing things in this life and can wait for that blessed hope to come. 😏
HaleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!
08 Oct 12
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayI was responding to your argument that we have to explain why if we are to understand the cosmos and your complaint that science fails to tell us why. You were arguing that only religion can tell us the answer to that question. I referred to Job as one example of the impossibility - in biblical terms - of ever understanding or explaining why anything. You certainly cannot tell us why God does anything so while you may consider that the why question is answered by saying 'Because God created the cosmos', that is just not going to work until you answer the question why God created the universe.
I honestly believe compared to God we don't, we understand the things of man
because of the spirit of man within us, we understand the things of God due to the
Spirit of God within us. Without God's input we have nothing, we most certainly
do not have any power before God to MAKE or force God into anything, nor do we
have cause or justification to make God do anything. So what is it your trying to
tell me I have wrong due to Job?
Kelly
As for why, the bible tells you that is a waste of time asking and that you're not going to get an answer. Try the Book of Job for starters. It is a fine read and utterly out of tune with your opinions. You complain when you cannot understand science then you appear to claim that you understand God. That is a very big claim and the Book of Job says you are wrong.
If there is one thing religion fails to do it is to tell us why. So religion fails your own test.
08 Oct 12
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfieIt is not for us to tell God when we are coming to Heaven and Paradise. We must wait until He is ready and has our mansion ready. I am not going to try to force my way into Heaven like a thief, for then I might get rejected. The apostle Paul wrote the following:
your not really selling heaven well. i thought heaven was supposed to be this amazing place where you can do all the things you can do on earth and more, while basking in the overwhelming love of god? yet you dont seem excited at the prospect.
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
(2 Corinthians 5:1-19 NKJV)
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/myway.htm
08 Oct 12
The point of this question was to demonstrate a lack of universal truth. That perspective rules the day. If, for whatever amount of evidence, be it personal, or as i see it, the complete lack of coincidence in life, you believe in a creator. Then the evidence of that will be around all you all the time. And then it is true that the universe was created. However if you believe there is no creator, then no matter how hard you try you will never be able to conjure up an event in which your beliefs will change. Which is also the truth. And the universe is a fluke of chaos
Take Eisenstein's model of the speed of light. A person on a train holds a lighter X. when the person flicks the lighter, person A and person B who are equidistant from X perceive the light to reach them at the exact same time. And they are correct. Because they are all on a moving train. However person C standing on the platform as the train passes perceives that the light from X reaches person A before it reaches B. And they are still all correct. There are Questions it has to be admitted, that will never be uncovered by science. Because as science shows the very nature of perceiving an object changes said object, rendering parts of our existence completely beyond the reach of our ken. In other words there is no truth, no solid evidence or vice versa only your own truth.
However the Noahs ark crowd are a bit of a stretch......
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08 Oct 12
Originally posted by RJHindsstrange response considering i didnt suggest you wanted to force your way in or tell god when you want to go to heaven.
It is not for us to tell God when we are coming to Heaven and Paradise. We must wait until He is ready and has our mansion ready. I am not going to try to force my way into Heaven like a thief, for then I might get rejected. The apostle Paul wrote the following:
[b]For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from ...[text shortened]... hether good or bad.
(2 Corinthians 5:1-19 NKJV)
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/myway.htm[/b]
08 Oct 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieSorry, I thought you were leading into the question, "Why aren't you a suicide bomber like the Muslims, if you are looking forward to a paradise in Heaven?"
strange response considering i didnt suggest you wanted to force your way in or tell god when you want to go to heaven.
09 Oct 12
Originally posted by finneganI've been saying this here for YEARS...faith is what I have when it comes to the
I was responding to your argument that we have to explain why if we are to understand the cosmos and your complaint that science fails to tell us why. You were arguing that only religion can tell us the answer to that question. I referred to Job as one example of the impossibility - in biblical terms - of ever understanding or explaining why anything. You ...[text shortened]... here is one thing religion fails to do it is to tell us why. So religion fails your own test.
distant past, and it is no different for you or anyone else. I accept what scripture
says about it yes, but again that is faith.
What I also say is YOU CAN NOT know what occured in the distant past unless you
have a time machine! You can give your best guess, you can take someone else'
best guess, but that is all you'll have, and if you believe them great...you may
maintain that until the next great idea about the distant past comes along.
The beginning of all things in this universe is a very important question, it sets the
stage for so many things. If there was a period where there wasn't a universe than
there was, what changed? If there was nothing than something, what could change
since there was nothing here to change? God as I believe answers all of these
questions in a more meaningful way than anything. Science does not even have
a theory on this, even the big bang has the singularity going boom, so where did
the singularity come from? If everything was in the singularity than the question
is all about where did it come from and why did it change?
I don't see how Job comes into this, again...could you be a little bit more specific?
Kelly
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09 Oct 12
Originally posted by RJHindsmy god man, its a bit of leap from being excited to see your maker and turning into a mass murderer to do it. especially as your god has a problem with suicide and murder, as does my understanding of allah.
Sorry, I thought you were leading into the question, "Why aren't you a suicide bomber like the Muslims, if you are looking forward to a paradise in Heaven?"
do me a favor rj, in the future when talking about mulsims being suicide bombers, can you word it as 'extremist-muslims', just to differentiate between the billions of non extremist and the handful of extremist. please.
09 Oct 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieThey all believe in the same book. It is just that the ones you call extremist believe in that book more than the others. 😏
my god man, its a bit of leap from being excited to see your maker and turning into a mass murderer to do it. especially as your god has a problem with suicide and murder, as does my understanding of allah.
do me a favor rj, in the future when talking about mulsims being suicide bombers, can you word it as 'extremist-muslims', just to differentiate between the billions of non extremist and the handful of extremist. please.
09 Oct 12
Originally posted by KellyJayBut I have just pointed out that God does not answer your questions AND DOES NOT CONSIDER YOU ARE ENTITLED TO AN ANSWER so you are talking nonsense. Your inability to make sense of Job is not my problem any more.
I've been saying this here for YEARS...faith is what I have when it comes to the
distant past, and it is no different for you or anyone else. I accept what scripture
says about it yes, but again that is faith.
What I also say is YOU CAN NOT know what occured in the distant past unless you
have a time machine! You can give your best guess, you can take ...[text shortened]... don't see how Job comes into this, again...could you be a little bit more specific?
Kelly
The statement "God created the universe" does not tell us a single thing about the origins of the universe. The discovery that classical physics including Relativity can account for the history of the cosmos back to the earliest fraction of a second does tell us a huge amount of useful information. Classical physics is the wrong scientific tool to examine that initial set of conditions. At a minimum, Quantum physics has to be applied. A lot has been learned in the past fifty years about this period but why bother entering into this territory? Why does Science have to know every answer to every quibble before you consider it has any value whatever? Even if not every last question has been answered (and that is the joy of science - it is not completed, it is work in progress) we already know enough to refute your stupid assertion that we cannot know what occured in the distant past.
If you want to base your argument on that initial fraction of a second then you have restricted the role of your God to a very infinitismal sub fraction of the history of the universe. You insist that this is very important only because you think you have found that one tiny gap into which you can insert your God and in your fantasies, prise open the whole edifice of science. The only important gap I can see is in what you understand. That is one very big gap indeed.