Originally posted by @fmf
The disputes of the past are in the past. Here you are making a fresh start.

What personal definition of "Christian" would mean that you 'qualified', in your own mind?

And what discrepancies are there between that definition of yours and the "qualifications" touted by the people you had those many, many disputes with?

I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. But I cannot comprehend, with my human mind, how the Trinity or Godhead 'works', because it's out of my realm.

My faith does fluctuate at times, but it's likely due to some troubling parts of the Bible.

Example: believe in Jesus, or spend eternity in hell. I disagree with that. If Jesus, the human, died on the cross, then His sacrifice was too great to be minimized by trivial notions of forced belief. Besides, God should realize that it's quite illogical to expect us to believe something that we did NOT witness over 2,000 years ago.

We are ALL saved if what Jesus did was an accurate account.

Originally posted by @chaney3
I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. But I cannot comprehend, with my human mind, how the Trinity or Godhead 'works', because it's out of my realm.

My faith does fluctuate at times, but it's likely due to some troubling parts of the Bible.

Example: believe in Jesus, or spend eternity in hell. I disagree with that. If Jesus, the human, die ...[text shortened]... NOT witness over 2,000 years ago.

We are ALL saved if what Jesus did was an accurate account.

Nice to meet you chaney3. You had me until the universalism kicked in. Can we not likewise say NOT all are saved if what Jesus said was an accurate account?

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Nice to meet you chaney3. You had me until the universalism kicked in. Can we not likewise say NOT all are saved if what Jesus said was an accurate account?

Hi Tom,

As I said, I find the message of Jesus both inspiring...and troubling, which is why, regardless what the Bible says, the message of redemption dominates over the threats of hell and eternal damnation.

Especially if 'lack of belief' is what sends one to hell.

Seems petty to me.

But.....obviously this is my view and I could be very wrong.

Originally posted by @chaney3
Hi Tom,

As I said, I find the message of Jesus both inspiring...and troubling, which is why, regardless what the Bible says, the message of redemption dominates over the threats of hell and eternal damnation.

Especially if 'lack of belief' is what sends one to hell.

Seems petty to me.

But.....obviously this is my view and I could be very wrong.

Welcome back chaney3.
It's very nice to make your acquaintance.🙂

Originally posted by @chaney3
Example: believe in Jesus, or spend eternity in hell. I disagree with that. If Jesus, the human, died on the cross, then His sacrifice was too great to be minimized by trivial notions of forced belief. Besides, God should realize that it's quite illogical to expect us to believe something that we did NOT witness over 2,000 years ago.

What do you mean by "forced belief"?

Originally posted by @fmf
What do you mean by "forced belief"?

Simply put...believe in Jesus, or spend eternity in hell.

Believe what?

He died on the cross?
He was resurrected?
He was God?

Either way, having the option of eternity in hell, maybe people are forcing themselves to believe, despite mountains of doubt.

Originally posted by @chaney3
Simply put...believe in Jesus, or spend eternity in hell.

Believe what?

He died on the cross?
He was resurrected?
He was God?

Either way, having the option of eternity in hell, maybe people are forcing themselves to believe, despite mountains of doubt.

There are only two kinds of people in this world - sheep and goats. Sheep will enter the Kingdom of God, because they live according to the law of Christ which is to love your neighbour as yourself.

Do you need Christians to tell you how to do that ?

Originally posted by @chaney3
Simply put...believe in Jesus, or spend eternity in hell.

Believe what?

He died on the cross?
He was resurrected?
He was God?

Either way, having the option of eternity in hell, maybe people are forcing themselves to believe, despite mountains of doubt.

When Jesus was preaching His gospel He used the terms "believe Him" and "believe in Him" essentially in three different ways:  
1) Believe that He has the authority to speak the word of God  
2) Believe that His words are the word of God  
3) Believe His words in and of themselves.  

Though many Christians will claim otherwise, in the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, He did NOT use them to mean to believe "He died on the cross", "He was resurrected", "He was God" or what have you. They disingenuously take His words out of context and claim that they say something they don't.  

Originally posted by @chaney3
I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. But I cannot comprehend, with my human mind, how the Trinity or Godhead 'works', because it's out of my realm.

My faith does fluctuate at times, but it's likely due to some troubling parts of the Bible.

Example: believe in Jesus, or spend eternity in hell. I disagree with that. If Jesus, the human, die ...[text shortened]... NOT witness over 2,000 years ago.

We are ALL saved if what Jesus did was an accurate account.

But I cannot comprehend, with my human mind, how the Trinity or Godhead 'works', because it's out of my realm.

It's not because it's out of your realm that you can't comprehend it. It's because it's nonsensical that you can't comprehend it. Don't let any Christian bully you into believing otherwise.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]But I cannot comprehend, with my human mind, how the Trinity or Godhead 'works', because it's out of my realm.

It's not because it's out of your realm that you can't comprehend it. It's because it's nonsensical that you can't comprehend it. Don't let any Christian bully you into believing otherwise.[/b]

You are saying that the Trinity and Godhead 'theories' are in essence....nonsense?

Why then do SO many people claim to either understand these theories, or to just believe them out of blind faith, despite how much they do not make sense?

Originally posted by @chaney3
You are saying that the Trinity and Godhead 'theories' are in essence....nonsense?

Why then do SO many people claim to either understand these theories, or to just believe them out of blind faith, despite how much they do not make sense?

Yes. They are nonsense.

Why then do SO many people claim to either understand these theories, or to just believe them out of blind faith, despite how much they do not make sense?

The short answer - as it is with the many other nonsensical Christian beliefs - is because it is SO self-serving for them to do so. Ultimately they want to get as much as they can whilst putting in as little effort as possible.

Originally posted by @rajk999
There are only two kinds of people in this world - sheep and goats. Sheep will enter the Kingdom of God, because they live according to the law of Christ which is to love your neighbour as yourself.

Do you need Christians to tell you how to do that ?

<<Sheep will enter the Kingdom of God, because they live according to the law of Christ which is to love your neighbour as yourself.

Do you need Christians to tell you how to do that ?>>

Why are you neglecting what Jesus Himself said was the greatest commandment - to love the Lord your God will all your heart, soul and mind?

“Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

(Matthew 22:35-40)

This is just one reason your salvation by works doctrine is such a mess - it leads you to conclude atheists go to heaven, which is not at all supported by the Bible.

It requires that one’s eternal destination be decided after they die, when the Bible is clear that people can know they are children of God while they are still on the earth.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
Yes. They are nonsense.

[b]Why then do SO many people claim to either understand these theories, or to just believe them out of blind faith, despite how much they do not make sense?

The short answer - as it is with the many other nonsensical Christian beliefs - is because it is SO self-serving for them to do so. Ultimately they want to get as much as they can whilst putting in as little effort as possible.[/b]

Do you believe the Holy Spirit exists?

Why, if Jesus was just a man as you believe, did He talk about proceeding and coming forth from the Father and said He would return in the clouds of heaven?

You may think Jesus was just a man, but then you have to also believe He was out of His mind to talk the way He did.

Originally posted by @romans1009
Do you believe the Holy Spirit exists?

Why, if Jesus was just a man as you believe, did He talk about proceeding and coming forth from the Father and said He would return in the clouds of heaven?

You may think Jesus was just a man, but then you have to also believe He was out of His mind to talk the way He did.

You may think Jesus was just a man, but then you have to also believe He was out of His mind to talk the way He did.

Nonsense. One only need recognize that Jesus often spoke in metaphor. It's the ones who take His metaphors literally that you have to wonder about.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]You may think Jesus was just a man, but then you have to also believe He was out of His mind to talk the way He did.

Nonsense. One only need recognize that Jesus often spoke in metaphor. It's the ones who take His metaphors literally that you have to wonder about.[/b]

So when Jesus says something you agree with, He’s not talking in metaphor.

And when Jesus says something you disagree with, He is talking in metaphor.

Seems pretty convenient.