12 May 12
5 edits
Originally posted by FMFsorry what type of organisation do you think i meant, the young farmers union, the
You have misstated what he said. And continue to do so for some reason. Divegeester said it is not a requirement of a Christian to be a member of a religious organisation. You are claiming that he said "a Christian should not belong to an organisation". That is an untrue or mistaken claim on your part and yet you persist with it.
association of reflexologists, such pedantry really is the best you can do, then its the
best you can do and just for the record, i meant religious organisations, perhaps i
should produce a terms of agreement policy every time I post so that pedants like you
will have to actually address the content rather than make arguments from
irrelevancies, then again perhaps it was my mistake to assume that you would know
what I meant.
12 May 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhat "type of organisation [I think you] meant" is immaterial, robbie. You got the wrong end of the stick and consequently misrepresented what divegeester clearly said. And yet you persist with it.
sorry what type of organisation do you think i meant, the young farmers union, the
association of reflexologists....
13 May 12
2 edits
Originally posted by FMFclearly you are wasting my time, i never got the wrong end of anything, he made a
What "type of organisation [I think you] meant" is immaterial, robbie. You got the wrong end of the stick and consequently misrepresented what divegeester clearly said. And yet you persist with it.
reference to religious organisations, it was understood at least by me that i meant
religious organisations and i will waste no more time discussing it, assume what you
will, assert what you will, make an issue of it, I really could not care less I have better
things to be getting on with.
13 May 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOf course divegeester was referring to "religious organisations". That isn't the issue. The issue is that you chose to misrepresent what he said about "religious organisations" and what he said about what is required of Christians. Whether Christians are required to be members of a "religious organisation" is the issue. Divegeester offered his view - that Christians don't have to be members of an organisation[/i] - and for some reason you have chosen to say things about divegeester's view that, if you will pardon me, are simply not true. I think you just misread what he said at first, but the way you are persisting with it, having had your error pointed out, reflects poorly on you robbie.
clearly you are wasting my time, i never got the wrong end of anything, he made a
reference to religious organisations, it was understood at least by me that i meant
religious organisations and i will waste no more time discussing it, assume what you
will, assert what you will, make an issue of it, I really could not care less I have better
things to be getting on with.
13 May 12
Surely 'true Christians' know who they are themselves. I know some and I know some false ones. There are no hard and fast rules.
Also, is the 'criteria on getting into heaven' (or not) really that important? I think not. it is the acts of kindness that are important and the effects that they have on others here on planet earth that matter. If I do something kind for someone else, I don't do it hoping I will get something in return; I do it because I think that this kind of act would make the world a better place to live in, to make someone smile or to relieve someone else's pain.
Originally posted by galveston75
What would qualify one to be a Christian? Knowledge, Kindness, Love, Devotion, Willingness, Servtitude or Slavery, Courage, Etc?
Jesus said that many would call themselves Christians, but he will tell them "to get away from me".
So scripturally, what is a Christian and what does a person do to be called a CHRISTIAN?
What would qualify one to be a Christian? Knowledge, Kindness, Love, Devotion, Willingness, Servtitude or Slavery, Courage, Etc?
Christ, Christ, Christ, Christ, and Christ.
Oh! And ... Christ.
13 May 12
Well it looks like one of the subjects that has come up is this... Is there a need for a person to be a part of a church or even something larger as an organization?
What does the Bible say?
Lets look at a few scriptures.
Acts 20:28
New Living Translation (NLT)
28 “So guard yourselves and God’s people. Feed and shepherd God’s flock—his church, purchased with his own blood[a]—over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you as elders.[b]
1 Corinthians 12:28
Good News Translation (GNT)
28 In the church God has put all in place: in the first place apostles, in the second place prophets, and in the third place teachers; then those who perform miracles, followed by those who are given the power to heal or to help others or to direct them or to speak in strange tongues.
Ephesians 4:11
Good News Translation (GNT)
11 It was he who
gave gifts to people; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers.
Hebrews 13:17
New Living Translation (NLT)
17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.
This is just a few of the many scriptures one can find that shows a common thread among the Christain Brothers and that is communication, unity, organized teaching and preaching work and watching over the congregations.
Could one be a Christian and not recieve these needed benifits of what an organized association of Brothers can offer with it's help and teaching and direction on many levels?
Did Jesus teach his followers to "just believe and go your own way"? Hardly....
13 May 12
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75A Christian can or cannot use the benefits that may be gained from joining an organisation. But it does not follow that one cannot be a Christian unless one is a member of an organization. Christians need to interact with people, clearly, but this - along with the string of vague and equivocal bible references that both you and robbie have offered so far - cannot to be said to indicate that 'being a member of a religious organization' is a prerequisite of, or part of a valid definition, of a Christian.
Could one be a Christian and not recieve these needed benifits of what an organized association of Brothers can offer with it's help and teaching and direction on many levels? Did Jesus teach his followers to "just believe and go your own way"? Hardly....
13 May 12
Originally posted by galveston75Clearly Christians are free to join religious organisations. I don't think this is in dispute.
This is just a few of the many scriptures one can find that shows a common thread among the Christain Brothers and that is communication, unity, organized teaching and preaching work and watching over the congregations.
13 May 12
Originally posted by FMFAgain I ask. Did Jesus make any such comment, hint's or suggestions that his followers would be out on their own so to speak as many who say they are Christian do today?
A Christian can or cannot use the benefits that may be gained from joining an organisation. But it does not follow that one cannot be a Christian unless one is a member of an organization. Christians need to interact with people, clearly, but this - along with the string of vague and equivocal bible references that both you and robbie have offered so far - canno ...[text shortened]... a religious organization' is a prerequisite of, or part of a valid definition, of a Christian.
Did he ever direct or tell his apostles to tell anyone in all the congregations not to be among the brotherhood that Jesus himself spoke on many occasions and to do whatever they thought would be ok to do?
Did he ever tell anyone not to take the direction of the elders in the congregations?
Were not the early Christians told not to forsake the gathering of themselves with the congregations and their activities?
Were the members of those congregations not taught how to go to all the surrounding towns and villages and teach what they had been taught? How could they do this teaching work and have the knowledge to do this if there was not in some type of organized programs that the elders under the direction of the apostles instituded?
If one has for whatever reason not become a part of this type of this type of spiritual organization just as the early congregations were a part of and accepting the direction of the apostles and elders that Jesus himself designed, how will they recieve any direction from ones that have been assigned by Jesus to progress and learn what one needs to be doing to do what a Christian should be doing?
Can a student of medicine progress in that field if he does not go to the learning centers to be taught and to be constantly learning as that field progresses with new info? Shouldn't the medical field be consistant in it's practices and treatments? Would you expect less?
As you yourself can see with many here that profess to be a Christian, there is many voids in what they know and there are as many opinions with it.
The Bible clearly says that Jesus's followers would be in full agreement. This cannnot happen when ones are not following an organized teaching program that has to be done to teach the truths in the Bible.
13 May 12
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Asking a string of questions about whether Jesus ever told someone NOT to do something, and inferring that this meant that he was telling them they HAD to do it, is what is known as sophistry. Christians can interact with other people, with other Christians, and live a 'Christian life', without joining an organisation that has been set up by other people who identify themselves as Christians or claim to be an/the authority on Christianity.
Again I ask. Did Jesus make any such comment, hint's or suggestions that his followers would be out on their own so to speak as many who say they are Christian do today?
Did he ever direct or tell his apostles to tell anyone in all the congregations not to be among the brotherhood that Jesus himself spoke on many occasions and to do whatever they thoug ...[text shortened]... some type of organized programs that the elders under the direction of the apostles instituded?
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13 May 12
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNo, you are being dishonest robbie. I very clearly said that, belonging to a religious organisation is not a requirement for being a Christian. Of course a Chrisitan may choose to join an organisation. I don't understand why you are deliberately misrepresenting what I said.
no, reading your posts once is quite enough for any man to endure. First of all you
assert that one does not need to be and I quote,
a member of, or have a association with, any temporal religious organisation,
body or group
when it was demonstrated to you that this premise was false based upon the Biblical
evidence that indeed, the ear ...[text shortened]... custom,
but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing
near.
Btw, if reading my posts is so "hard to endure" and they are clearly quite difficult for you to comprehend, please feel free to return to your childish ignore/shun divegeester approach.
13 May 12
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75OK, I accept you believe what you believe about Christians not being Christians. So, to clarify, you are saying someone who believes in Jesus and in the Christian God and who bases his or her beliefs on the Christian bible, is not a Christian unless they are a joined-up member of an organization like the Roman Catholic Church or the Anglican Church, or others? Is that right?
The Bible clearly says that Jesus's followers would be in full agreement. This cannnot happen when ones are not following an organized teaching program that has to be done to teach the truths in the Bible.
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13 May 12
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75I think you are confusing having a structural body of leadership with being a corporate organisation which has within it and part of it, a body of leadership; the two things are not the same.
Well it looks like one of the subjects that has come up is this... Is there a need for a person to be a part of a church or even something larger as an organization?
What does the Bible say?
Lets look at a few scriptures.
Acts 20:28
New Living Translation (NLT)
28 “So guard yourselves and God’s people. Feed and shepherd God’s flock—his churc any levels?
Did Jesus teach his followers to "just believe and go your own way"? Hardly....
The former is a loose physical affiliation, but tightly bonded through the spirit of Christ into a 'body of believers' who themselves make up the physical church. The latter (and the more common) understanding of a church is that of a temporal organisation made up of an executive leadership and built upon a foundation of the physical i.e. bricks and mortar and usually bonded by legal and/or financial affiliations; e.g. the global and big local religious organisations, the main Christian denominations and of course the JW organisation.
Not being part of this corporate entity does not in any way preclude a person from being a Christian, nor does it mean that that Christian cannot "gather together" with other Christians, submit to spiritual leadership or carry out the word of God in obedience to the scriptures. To claim otherwise is in my opinion cultish thinking.